From Struggling to Thriving: Douglas McCormick’s Blueprint for Organizational Success

Shane Mahi

[00.00.01]

 Guys, we're live today. I've got Douglas McCormick. He is the CEO of Pegasus, and we're going to get right into it today. So, Douglas, if you walk us through very quickly in the next three minutes, who are you? What do you do and why should a new viewer stay on this hour episode to hear what you're talking about?

Douglas McCormick

[00.00.21]

 So, um, Shane's introduced me. I am Douglas McCormick. Um, and, uh, I work as a chief executive. I've worked as a chief executive in quite a number of organizations. But what I do is about transforming organizations. It's about taking something that is broken and fixing it, or taking something that is suboptimal and making it optimal or even better than optimal. And so for the last 20 odd years, I've been working in businesses to transform them. Um, and transformation always, uh, involves, um, people. People are at the center of everything. If you get your people strategy right, everything else will follow. Um, if you get your technology strategy aligned with your people strategy, um, then you're going to get efficiency, and efficiency drives profit from revenue and customers. Um, and so for the next hour or so, Shin and I are going to talk about how that works and various things from that worth hanging around for.

Shane Mahi

[00.01.26]

 So interesting points and getting people aligned and technology. I'm uh, on more on the agency side. I built an agency five years ago and I had no idea how to run a business. I was always a business development manager, and I was always told what to do by my managers. My last manager ended up being a fantastic manager, helping me really define and complete my end to end sales process. So when I did decide to leave my job, I was a full sales cycle rep and I even knew how to take a sale all the way to the to all the way to payment and then renewal. Now, when I started my business, I quickly found out. And I'd love to hear your point on this. I was not able to replicate myself. So this idea I had of this magical business I was going to create, where I was so good at what I did, and if only I could do it myself and make the rules and deliver on the outcomes, everything would work. But I hired people and quickly found out that people don't operate like me. And I invested a ton of money in technology, and the technology worked faster than I was able to perform with it, and I didn't have enough data to support it. So I ran into just my first two years with just complete failure and learning. Until year three. I was able to implement systems, processes, structure, and accountability for people. And then I understood how that kind of flow worked. So what do you see as king of the biggest flaw or mistake businesses are making? When you go and consult with them or talk to them about growth and transformation?

Douglas McCormick

[00.03.07]

 Um, so the first thing I normally look at is the structure, um, and the structure around how they're operationally organized and then how they account for those operations. And quite often what you find is that the tail of accounting wags the dog of operations, when it should be the other way around. Um, and quite often the accounting policies drive bad behavior. Um, so, for example, if you have, um, you know, an old post office sorting office, they would have pigeonholes and whole walls of them, and you would put everything in the pigeonhole. And if your accounting system looks like a post office pigeonhole. Um, set up, then getting people in one box to relate and collaborate and work well with people in another box next door or down or across the hall or, um, very, very difficult to do. So looking at structure as the first thing, um, to make sure that, uh, you aren't shooting yourself in the foot by mis-aligning things and working out, um, you know, what is your why? What are you here to do? Um, what are you trying to achieve? Uh, and if you're going to achieve that, have you set your organisation and the alignment of your organisation up to do that? And what often happens is organisation, um, evolve. So, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I start a business, I get three people to come. For me, in smaller organisations, the entrepreneur probably remains the rainmaker for a very long time. Um, and finding another rainmaker to come alongside is a real challenge. So it grows over time, and all my skills are good to grow it to this level. But if I want a ticket to that level, I need to actually start to hire people who are better and different to me. And I think the challenge that a lot of organizations find is, is it takes quite a big person to hire somebody who's better than you or who brings different skills to you without you feeling undermined or threatened, or that somehow they're going to run off with your business when actually, um, you know, you still retain control, but actually you're celebrating the fact that you're bringing in people who add value to your business, and you benefit and they benefit and you achieve the objectives that you you set the business up for in the first instance.

Shane Mahi

[00.05.44]

 Absolutely. And on that point, I want to backtrack a little bit too. It's how that's how the structure of the organization is. So what does good structure look like?

Douglas McCormick

[00.05.53]

 So um, it depends what your market is. So I have worked in people, consultancies pretty much all of my working life. Um, and the business model for a people consultancy is we hire clever people, and then we sell their skills to clients for a fee to deliver an outcome. Um, it's not an unusual model. Um, if you made widgets, you would make widgets to sell to a client for, for some, you know. Um, so it's about knowing what you're trying to achieve and then driving to that objective. Unpack the question with a bit more information. Yeah. So is there a formula that you use for good structure? And I'll paint a picture for you. What I used is early on in my development of my agency, I was speaking to one of the consultants that I speak to, Jake Dunlap. He's a very, very influential figure in the US market. He runs a company, Scaled Consulting Agency. And I said, hey, look, I've got my agency to generate six figures. I'm on track to seven. Things are unorganized, though. I can't piece these things together. Um, I don't know where to start. He goes, do you have your customer journey mapped out end to end? That's number one. Yeah. I said, no, I don't. I kind of knew it. I have it drawn on a mirror board. No, he said I want it literally from the moment you pick your data all the way to onboarding them and sending the renewal, do you have every single stage of that mapped out? And the answer was no. And he said, okay, have you ever read this book by Eli Gold? The gold, the goal? I don't know if you've ever heard of that book, but it's a fantastic book about throughput. And then there was one more book that he told me. It's called The Entrepreneurial Operating System by Gina Wickman, and it sets up a matrix with six components, including data people, process systems, um, and a number of other small elements. And once I read that book and understood how to put it all together and what triggers to measure to see how traction was achieved, my business grew 400%, 444%, to be exact. Right? And it was phenomenal growth. That is too much growth that I actually collapsed because it grew too fast, and we didn't have the systems and processes in place to support that. That's what I mean by our structure. It worked. It was fluid. Everybody knew what to do and how to do it. So much so that when you hire better people, then you. I got the business to a place where the business ran better without me. Yeah, I

Shane Mahi

[00.08.26]

 hired the right people and I got there. So that point there. So what does a good structure look like? What you've just mentioned is how it kind of gets in place. But what does it look like? What does the framework look like?

Douglas McCormick

[00.08.37]

 Um. So for me, it's about identifying. So your customer journey. Exactly. But what services are you selling to the customer, and how do you organise the delivery of those services from the moment you have your first interaction with the client to, right through to, you've delivered exactly what they want and sent your bill. Um, and in consultancy there's normally more than one service line. So you need to identify your service lines. And you need to make sure that your processes and each service line are the same and consistent. Um, and particularly if you are, if you're, if you've got multicentre. So if you're, you know, here in the UK, uh, Pegasus Group is spread over 13 different offices, you need to make sure in the service line they use, uh, the tools and software and the stuff that they use to create the product for the client. There needs to be consistency. Absolutely. Uh, so that you, you get those systems and processes and you because that allows you flexibility, but where you move your work, um, so you can have a steady resource pool, you can have the right number of people, um, and you can move the work to the people rather than moving people to work. Because people work as an expensive, uh, expensive option. Um. Uh. So that operational structure. And you can have that for as many service lines as you want, and you can set your pyramid management structure to manage those service lines alongside that. And in my view, as part of the team, you need your functional people. So you need your people director. You need your finance director. You need your technology director, um, your marketing and communication. So all the people that provide the infrastructure that that is kind of the back office of, of the business that needs to be alongside to um, uh, and if, as I sometimes discover, you get a them and us attitude, you know, we are out there earning all the money and these guys just sit back in the office. Um,

Shane Mahi

[00.10.46]

 yeah.

Douglas McCormick

[00.10.47]

 I'm sure you've never come across that, Shane. Um, when you get that, um, I put these people in the same team, so I normally have a board of directors. That's about the strategic direction and the governance of the company. And then I have a senior leadership team, and that's the operational and function heads sitting together and working together, recognizing that actually teams deliver success. Heroes tend to be a pain.

Shane Mahi

[00.11.14]

 That's very, very true. How do you deal with that? How do you manage that kind of situation? Because I've come across that and I didn't do too well.

Douglas McCormick

[00.11.22]

 Well, um. The emphasis is on the team. It's about, um. So as the chief executive, um, I'm a bloke doing a job. I am no more important or less important than anybody else in my business, from The Apprentice through to, um, my peers on the board. Um, I'm just a bloke doing a job. My responsibilities are different. Um, just as in the different roles that people have, their responsibilities are different. Um, but we are the orchestra that I conduct to produce lovely music. And so if you've got a hero who decides that they're going to go off piste and do something different, actually, I normally remove them from the organisation and quite often they'll remove themselves because, um, their ego, you know, egos are very nasty things. And if they are reduced to the level of the team in their eyes, you know, if I'm Superman and I have to work for the team, um, then they quite often leave because they feel that they're not being respected or or, um, treated well. Um, when in fact you're treating them as an equal amongst others on the team. Um, but so if you're not a team player for me, then that's a problem. And, um, people often say to me, but, but, you know, Fred or Sheila just generates so much work. Yeah, but they caused so much pain as well. And the cost of fortune. And actually, there are ways to resolve and solve that problem, um, that don't involve stroking Egle the whole time. So I normally remove heroes because they actually don't, um, give the return on investment that I would expect that I get and achieved by having people work together as equals on a team with respect and mutual understanding.

Shane Mahi

[00.13.18]

 I agree, and I learned that lesson. Um, it was in 2022 or May 2023, I was working with a PE investor. He had just exited, um, uh, an aviation software company for $135 million. And I asked him, when is the right time to fire somebody? And he said, it's never too early and it's never too late. But when you do it, it feels great. Ha ha ha. What is your perspective on that line?

Douglas McCormick

[00.13.50]

 Do you know I had a boss who said to me, Douglas, the only thing that you'll regret because. Because, you know, we're dealing with real people's lives here. And the impact of loss of employment is a significant thing for quite a lot of people. Um, in fact, I think for everybody, it's pretty shocking. Um, but on the other hand, we're not running a charity and we're not running a kindergarten. Uh, yeah. And my, my, this particular boss said to me, Douglas, the only thing you will regret is that you didn't deal with it sooner. Uh, and so these days, where before. I mean, I still sometimes lose sleep over what? What has to be done with certain individuals in the business. But where before I would be slow and procrastinate and, you know, maybe we would do a performance improvement plan. Maybe that'll work. Nowadays, I know it is. Seldom will I go down that route. I just get on with it and deal with it and say, we really want you to go and be successful somewhere else and manage that well. So, you know, you need to leave people. There needs to be a certain level of generosity in dealing with that. And there needs to be, um, some respect, uh, so that they leave with their dignity intact and they leave still being able to put bread on their table for a reasonable amount of time before they, in the normal, um, cycle of the market, would pick up other employment. Um, but, yeah. Um. The only thing you regret is you didn't deal with it quicker. It's an amazing line and it was an amazing lesson for me. I never thought of it like that. And the person that I had to fire, why it was so hard, it was. It was one of my best friends. Yeah.

Shane Mahi

[00.15.33]

 You know that business together?

Douglas McCormick

[00.15.34]

 Yeah. And that's, um. Uh, I had a colleague in a certain business, um, and, um, we, we got a new boss, and my colleague was one of two IT directors, and, uh, the new boss said, so I only need one IT director. So you're going. And he said, I want you to know the reason you're going is because you're lazy. And my friend was furious about that. How dare you say I'm lazy and about. After he calmed down and reflected on it, he went back to see the boss a few days later and he said, you know, nobody's ever been that honest with me before. And you're right, I am lazy. And he said, so, yeah, okay, it's me that needs to go. But I've learned a really valuable lesson. Uh, and, um, you know, he went on to be very successful because somebody was honest enough to tell him the reason that he didn't fit the organisation or that he was going. Yeah, because here was a truthful explanation. And one of the challenges of dealing in these situations is to be honest and truthful, not to be aggressive and nasty or to be malicious. But actually sometimes you need to be cruel to be kind. Sometimes you need to tell somebody, you know, it's your attitude that's wrong. Or, um, you know this. You need to think about addressing this. Uh, and that'll be at the end, hopefully of a process where you, where you've, you know, you've nudged that tiller along for a while and it's just not going to change direction. Was there? Was there ever a point in your career then that it became? I don't think the word is to become easy, because when you are having a conversation, a direct conversation with somebody is there's always empathy. Um, unless you don't have it. But was there ever a point where you were like, I'm comfortable doing this now? Yeah. Um,

Shane Mahi

[00.17.30]

 and one. And when was that?

Douglas McCormick

[00.17.33]

 Well, I think, um. I, I took on a, I took on a key role for an organization that was bankrupt and that had criminal proceedings operating against it from the authorities. Um, and it became clear to me that I had to be comfortable dealing with the issue. Um, it's like, you know, if I get gangrene climbing up my leg, I'm going to cut my leg off, because if I don't cut my leg off, I'm going to die. And so I got to a place where I was comfortable that actually, um, in employing, um, thousands of people, if I didn't deal with the small minority who were the cancer in the organization and the focus of the criminal proceedings, um, the organization would be destroyed. And so, um. I got comfortable with the fact that, um, if you're the chief exec or you're the senior manager, you're it and it sits with you and the longevity or and the heritage that the organization will have is absolutely dependent on your own actions. And if you don't take action, then, um, the organization will suffer accordingly. So um, and sometimes it's like gardening, you know, um, it's autumn here in the UK and the trees are turning lovely colors. And, um, and the gardener will come and he'll trim all my hedges, and he'll cut all the trees and they'll look lovely. Um, and sometimes with an organization, it's like gardening. You just have to tidy up and trim a few things, and you need to be comfortable, because that actually facilitates the growth that will come in the spring. And it's not so different in an organization. So, um, that doesn't necessarily mean that on a personal level, it becomes any easier to have those difficult conversations, but because you're having them for the right reasons and it's an empathetic, honest conversation, um, then I've got to a place probably with age. You know, age helps. Um, I'm not advocating getting old. Um, it just happens. But actually,

Shane Mahi

[00.19.44]

 there

Douglas McCormick

[00.19.44]

 There is a time in life when you're kind of comfortable in your own skin and, um, you know, that's what you're doing, you're doing for the right reasons, with the right motivation. And so, yeah, I, I've probably probably the last ten years I've been quite comfortable just saying, do you know what we need to do with this and then dealing with it in a, in a decent and respectful manner.

Shane Mahi

[00.20.07]

 Yeah, because you have to go through it. You have to go through the motions. You have to go through the good times, the good times, the bad times. So if we take it back a little bit, do you want to do you want to jump on it on that, on that point. No. You know, you do. You do have to, you know, um, so people forget that, um, folks at the top of the organization, if I can use that language, um, senior people that they're human to, they have feelings. Um, I mean, yeah, I was involved in an organization where we had an exercise to remove a number of people, and I had 2 or 3 managers who just just couldn't do it. Got to the door of the building where the people they were to speak to were and had to go, go away and say, I'm really I just can't do this. So, you know, um, yeah, you go through it, um, and uh, it, uh, it's one of the things that personally, um, early on cost me quite a lot of sleepless nights, but no less so. So before you get into those sleepless nights and again, I have very early stages of it. 4 or 5 years, half a decade is enough. And now I'm kind of on another journey, but still owning my own agency. I still kind of determine my future. I figured out that I wanted to be a CEO or an entrepreneur, the owner of my own destiny in 2018. So in the 2000, my dad was a Goldman Sachs executive. So I experienced what investment banking life was like. That was really cool. Uh, I wanted to get into capital markets. I took all my tests and internships to become a financial advisor. And then I ended up getting into financial kinds, of course, sales and then oil and gas. Um, but when I started to see how a division was run, that's where I said I could do this better than my boss. And then two years later, I did execute, and within three, three and a half weeks, I had my first, um, five digits in income from three clients, and that was another convincer. And then it wasn't until, uh, again, I thought it was about money, and I wanted big checks in my account, and I wanted to. I didn't want to have to ask my boss for a raise. And I started to recognize that, and that wasn't enough. And then one of my employees said to me, help me buy a house. And that was like a really big, convincing moment for me where the company that we created, everybody's happy. Everybody's like, they get to have fun during the day and they're able to achieve certain things in life. The fulfillment of that was like my big thing, but it happened from a little spark, right? A little spark in your mind. And I'd love for people to know and see influential figures, successful entrepreneurs talk about. Where did they kind of figure it out that they were different?

Douglas McCormick

[00.23.04]

 Yeah. And for me, you know, I've never had a career plan. Um, but whenever somebody comes along and says, Douglas, this is really difficult. Um, I felt great. Um, I've always volunteered for the difficult. And the reason for the problem is simple. Um, if it's all going wrong or it's really bad or it's really difficult, I'm probably not going to make it any worse. I might actually make it much better. And when you're exposed to difficulties of varying extremes, um, what you learn is not the routine stuff. Uh, you know, it's not business as usual if it's all going terribly wrong. And so I acquired skills about how you take something that's very difficult, that's going wrong, that's not well managed, that isn't structured properly, that has toxic people in it, that's got, um, all sorts of different elements. Um, and I learned how you deal with those and, um, I suppose one of the things that all of us suffer from to a greater, less extent, and I certainly did as imposter syndrome when I was when I was a small boy, I used to get into trouble for being in places I shouldn't be. So I've loved building sites all my life, and as a kid, I would go wandering around building sites until. Until the watchman or the foreman or the site guy

Shane Mahi

[00.24.28]

 would go, yeah,

Douglas McCormick

[00.24.31]

 What are you doing here?

Shane Mahi

[00.24.33]

 And, you know,

Douglas McCormick

[00.24.35]

 and sometimes sitting in, in various meetings, I'm thinking, goodness, if I get found out, you know, I'll be out here. Uh, but over time, having dealt with lots of different circumstances, I suddenly realised I was actually quite good at this. I didn't mean that. I didn't mean that in an egotistical way. I suddenly just realized that I had got involved and the thing had gone from being really terminal to actually. Um, I remember taking on an organization, and the bank phoned me up the week before I became chief exec, and, um, the bank invited you, me for coffee. Now you'll know if the bank invites you for a coffee. It's never for a good reason.

Shane Mahi

[00.25.18]

 Okay. I didn't know that. Well, you know, um, come and see us. So I went to see them. And basically what they said to me the week before I started this new role was, um, we just want you to know that the patient is in intensive care and not expected to live. And I said, so do I have some time? And they said, yeah, you do have some time, but you don't have much time. And, actually, 18 months later that business was making 10% profit and was bought for, I think it was 173% of the share price that was prevailing at that time. Um, wow. And I used to go and see the bank manager every week to make sure that he didn't get cold feet and pull the plug because I needed his support. But, um, yeah. So, you know, um, it can be quite fun sometimes. And you realize because you take something that that really, really, you know, the banker telling you, yeah, this guy's almost dead. Don't miss, like, saying, like,

Douglas McCormick

[00.26.17]

 um, today, today, it's a thriving, successful business that's under new ownership. But the new ownership has been very good for everybody.

Shane Mahi

[00.26.25]

 Mhm. Wow. That's really interesting. So on yourself then a little bit about Douglas. Seems like you are a little bit of an adventure seeker as a young person at a young age. But when you go through so much and you see so much change, and we'll dig deeper into that, you discover like, I don't think I've still really discovered my true why? I think I have kind of an understanding of it. And when you're building structure and process for your business, what is the reason? What is the problem you solve? What is the reason for yourself? For those that are kind of inspired by this conversation and kind of want to take heed to it, what would you say your why is.

Douglas McCormick

[00.27.08]

 Um. I think, I think and this sounds slightly cheesy. Um, but actually delivering a better world for people is my way. Um, you know, my North star is to be a gracious old man. Um, not a grumpy old man.

Shane Mahi

[00.27.31]

 But

Douglas McCormick

[00.27.31]

 delivering but delivering a better society for people. And, you know, quite often, um, the creators of wealth get knocked for creating wealth. But actually, as you create wealth, that's not about making yourself rich necessarily. And that's a byproduct of if it happens and you're successful in that way. But you know, so currently the organization I work for, we employ, we're not huge at the moment. We employ 430 people. So there are 430 families. And we put bread on the table. We put school uniforms on the kids. We pay the fees for this and, you know, the car and the mortgage. And so that responsibility for people's lives and creating wealth that adds to the value of society. And that gets me out of bed in the morning. I can make a difference. And, um, the aggregate of industry in a country is about the national wealth and national well-being of the society. And that also then allows you, um, in your social value to take care of and look properly after those who are not so fortunate to be capable of joining in that for lots of different reasons. So, yeah, that that's kind of me and that drives me.

Shane Mahi

[00.28.50]

 Wow, that's really good. And you know what? The way you put it, where it's you're you're not only employing people, which is, I think one step there's a, there's I don't know if you ever heard of it, but there's a book by a famous sales trainer and it's four levels of thinking. And this is what really helped me push my kind of thought process. And you always have the first level of thinking, which is like the underlying thing, what exists now, then it's the outcome of what you're trying to create. Then it's the outcome of that outcome and then kind of the future. Right. And the way you've put it, where not only are you helping put food on the table for the person you're employing, but their families, but then what their kids are doing and putting food on the table for the kids. And just like you said, the school, because that level of thinking is what I think more people need to understand, because we're coming to a world where I'm seeing it right now. I don't know if you saw the Wii Robot, um, event by Elon Musk. I don't know what your opinion on yesterday's guest wasn't too hot on him, but we're creating a future where a lot of people are not going to have to really think or be creative anymore. They're just going to act. Everything is going to be done for them. And then understanding, like the concept of owning a business beyond, I want to be an influential figure and be it the famous or YouTube famous. They're not understanding. Like if they do any of those things, there's something usually on the back end of that is where you're helping people. And when you're helping, people need support from helping those people. You need to build out that kind of thought process. So where do you think the world is going right now in terms specific to the use of generative AI in improving your daily life, improving your business operation as a second tier? But how are you seeing it from all the transitions you've seen throughout your career?

Douglas McCormick

[00.30.38]

 Um, I think the biggest noticeable difference is the speed. The speed of that technological change is enormous and very fast. Um, I think, too, given that a lot of organizations are run by people that look like me and of a similar vintage, there is a Luddite fear attached to it. Um, but once you get under the skin of it, what you realize is we are gaining new tools that do things for us that take away some of the grungy work that actually nobody really enjoys that much. Um, my strong opinion is that what it does not take away is the genius of a human brain that looks at it and says, yes, that's right. So, you know, when you start to look at how you integrate generative AI into your business, um, it's in parallel. So we've been having a debate recently about, um, what disclosures do we need to make when we're using AI in the creation of materials? Um, and I've been thinking about that for quite a while. Um, because I have never sent a report to a client or data to a client saying this data was produced using Excel. Or

Shane Mahi

[00.31.57]

 this document

Douglas McCormick

[00.31.58]

 was created using words. Um, you know, so, um, I find it quite a strange concept that people want me to see. And by the way, I used AI in in the making of

Shane Mahi

[00.32.09]

 this when, when

Douglas McCormick

[00.32.10]

 For me, you know, um, I might as well say, well, I used my calculator or I had a pencil, you know, I mean, how primitive do you want it to be? What we're doing is we're taking technology and recognizing the enormity of data, and the technology allows us to process and to harvest from that data much faster, quicker, better than we've ever been able to do before. And really, all that's happening is we are speeding up a process that people used to take weeks, months and in some instances years to do so. Um, so we're embracing that. And there's a whole education piece that is about training staff. Um, it's about understanding where your data is, who's got your data. Um, how private is your data recognizing the legislative requirements that go with that? Um, uh. But those who get it. Um, you know, one of the things I talked to people about is my fear for organizations is that they're going to run over by the future. And, uh, there's a real danger that people will get run over by the future. So, um, uh, you know, when I was a kid, you could make a valve radio. Um, and then a transistor radio came along and valve radios disappeared. And actually, if I talk about transistor radios now, there'll be people listening to this who will say, well, what was that? You know,

Shane Mahi

[00.33.36]

 I want to know, too. You know,

Douglas McCormick

[00.33.41]

 and all we saw was an evolution of technology that started with valves and wires through and, and, you know, um, you know, my, my iPhone that's sitting on my desk here where I'm talking to you from has more power than than the early computers had. It's just so, um, I find all of this really exciting. And I would say to people, uh, be intelligent about it, go and find some help. Go find some experts, go to them, find some people that know how this stuff really works. And then look at, um, you're almost back to your process map. Yeah, but, you know, because if you draw out your process map. Then you can start to identify, um, the points at which generative AI adds value to that process map. And what you'll find is that it compresses the timeline so that you can do what you always did, but you can do it faster, quicker, better. And so there's a level of efficiency and economy that comes with that, that, that absolutely needs to be embraced. And folks who don't get that are likely to be run over by the future.

Shane Mahi

[00.34.48]

 I agree, and I think it's a big theme in terms of the conversations I'm having. So I'm operating right now for one of my major clients in financial services, made mainly of credit management and credit control. A lot of these companies, they're late adopters of technology, and they are seeing a big opportunity in using voice generative AI to improve collection rates. Recovery rates have retention goals, and the speed at which it can happen is phenomenal. Like we're talking 7000, uh, contacts to people. Per agent. So most companies are buying ten or more, which is 70,000. You know, this is incredible numbers and incredible amounts of speed, uh, double connection rates. So the point I'm making is that a lot of them see this opportunity. Even our reseller programs, they see opportunities where they're like, yep, I want to do this here. Speak to this person, speak to this person, speak to this person. But I'm sure there's something that a few will miss. And what I would like you to share your views on are the.com bubble Y2K, where the internet bubble like it really catapulted businesses. It helped them connect a lot more. And now we're in this phase of capturing this. I kind of curve how should businesses truly capture this opportunity, but also what risks should they be made aware of from somebody, an expert like you?

Douglas McCormick

[00.36.17]

 Um, so to capture it, you need to work out how to engage with it first. And if you've got. So I'm very fortunate. I've got a very clever, um, technology director. And so this sits in his bag. Um, and so he and I are exploring. How do we engage with this? What are the parameters within which we'll use it in the organization? How do we protect our data so that it doesn't sell off into the sunset on somebody's open platform? Um, or if we're putting on an open platform, we're happy that it's there. Um, and then we're doing what I just described, which is looking at our customer process and looking at all of our processes. So our finance processes, our people processes, our selling processes and working out the touch points where this makes a difference to our organisation. Um, and generally that's around things that, um, required manual intervention. I don't mean giving professional opinion, but I mean somebody, somebody once upon a time used to tape a report, um.

Shane Mahi

[00.37.27]

 And insert photos and, you know, um, and make it look pretty and then photocopy it and put it in an envelope and post it and send it to the client, all of that stuff and all of that's gone, because this stuff will do all of that. And then what you need is a clever person to look at it and go, yeah, I've read that. That looks right. I'll sign it as the, uh, as the owner of it. Um, the risks are that. Um, just because I generated it doesn't mean it's correct.

Douglas McCormick

[00.37.56]

 It could be wrong. So if you're in the wrong area of, I just press the button, I got this out and I sent it to the client.

Shane Mahi

[00.38.05]

 Yeah. Yeah,

Douglas McCormick

[00.38.09]

 that's. Yeah, that. Don't do that.

Shane Mahi

[00.38.11]

 Yeah. Don't even try the form. You can't be doing that. Um, but the risks are, um. You need to understand where your data is. So how do you organize your data? Where's your data lake, and how is it stored? How is it protected? Um, uh, and you need to make sure that your people are properly trained to use it. So you need some policies and processes that go around that. Um, and engaging with that, what we've begun to do, and this has worked often for lots of things. Um, we've started with a pilot. So instead of spreading the whole slice of toast with this stuff, we've just taken a corner. And so let's try it over there and run it. And let's look at what happens and the results that come from that. Mhm. And when we've done the experiment in a pilot program we can look at that and go right here's the learning. Here's what went well. Here's what didn't go so well. Here are the things we'll adjust. And then you can know depending how well it went you might want to run another pilot. But actually quite often it's just a case of saying okay, that worked well on an 8020 rule. It's good to go. And we'll, we can manage, uh, manage the rest of it. Um, the security around all of that is also important. Uh, you know, cybersecurity is a huge issue for everybody. Yeah, yeah,

Douglas McCormick

[00.39.40]

 but the security of that data and the privacy of that data, um, the interfaces. So where are you creating interfaces with your clients or with your supply chain? You need to make sure those are all sorted out and proper, and you need to make sure you're working with people. Well, you kind of need to do this anyway. Who are like minded and have the same values and the same process thinking so that the alignment, you know, alignment within the organization is one thing. Alignment down through your supply chain, um, is equally important, uh, and how they use data and how you share data and all of that good stuff.

Shane Mahi

[00.40.18]

 Absolutely. So one big question that would probably be raised is when you are entering these AI initiatives, do you hire expert agents externally or do you train and build within? Um,

Douglas McCormick

[00.40.30]

 I think there's a need. So there's a need to um.

Shane Mahi

[00.40.35]

 If you have the expertise in house, then fine, but you might not. If you don't have the expertise, go and get an expert because you'll waste a lot of time and money, you know. Um, I for dummies, or kind of, uh, the Heinz car manual for. I know DIY. I, um, you might get there in the end. Um, you know, my first car was a mini, and I could take my mini to pieces, and I had a Heinz manual that showed me how to put it all back together again.

Douglas McCormick

[00.41.08]

 And I quite often had a box of nuts and bolts at the end. And I thought, well, wow, I didn't have those at the beginning. You know, um, if you don't have the expertise, go and get an expert because it will be cheaper, quicker, better. Um, but you have to train that out so you, you know, um, you're not going to, you're not going to want to, um, employ lots of experts. You're going to want to grow your own. And so, um, part of that brief for your expert is not just to get you to understand what you can do and how you do it, but to train people so that they're upskilled to use the stuff properly. And that begins to change that. You know, we're looking at that because it's changing our recruitment strategy, because we won't need as many people as we have in the past. Um, we still need clever people. Um, yeah, we're obviously clever people, but we might not need as many as once. We thought we would need to do the same things and to deliver the volume. Or if we're looking at exponential growth, the more people we have, actually, the faster we can grow. Um, always respect that your working capital and your cash flow need to be aligned with that, because you can be really, really clever and run out of cash and disappear off the face of the earth very quickly. So you need to there's a lot, you know, there's a lot in the normal process of running a business that has to be balanced against the entering into new areas and adopting new technology. Um, none of that should put anybody off from getting on with it.

Shane Mahi

[00.42.40]

 Well, I think that's a good way to wrap it up. And again, you're hitting the nail on the head with how to do it. Why the reasons? But for those who are still on the fence, they're listening to this. They want to hear more. What would you say ? If you're going to share your views, what would you say your kind of predictions over the next 12 months are for customers, similar to Pegasus customers or potential customers? What's your perspective on how AI is going to evolve over the next 12 months, what are we looking to see? Um, I expect I expect that just as we're educating our people in AI and we're educating our clients in AI to, um, and at the end of the day, they're buying a product from us, which is either a design or it's our professional opinion and stuff, or it's an application for something. Um,

Douglas McCormick

[00.43.34]

 the fact that the quality of that, um, only gets better and is produced quicker, um, um, I'm sure at one point clients will make something. Well, that must mean it's less expensive. Um,

Shane Mahi

[00.43.48]

 yeah.

Douglas McCormick

[00.43.49]

 And you need to know, um, one of my ambitions is always to be the most expensive consultant you'll ever hire. Um, but actually, I see, um, a much faster delivery of goods and services to clients because our processes have been aligned with technology that allows us to deliver that well. Um, and I think there'll be a quick uptake in that. Um, uh, and we're back to the building blocks of. Our business aggregated with other businesses becomes an industry . Industry aggregator becomes a national economy, national economy. And actually what you then start to drive is economic trends across the nation. And because we live in a global village, um, other players who are global businesses begin to affect the global market. And actually, you're back to you could be the little spark that changes the world economy.

Shane Mahi

[00.44.45]

 I think that's the best way to wrap this up. I think you plan that. You plan that you knew I got it. All right. Well, look, that's the top of the hour because I know you're going to jump. Are there any last words, Douglas, for those that are watching you for the first time?

Douglas McCormick

[00.45.00]

 Yeah. Don't be scared. Um, and, uh, you know, I often listen to my gut, um, because actually, um, uh, believe in yourself and go with your gut and be successful. And if you need help, never be too proud to say, can you help me with this? And, um, big people always ask others who are better than themselves for the help they need to do great things. So go do it.

Shane Mahi

[00.45.28]

 Oh, wow. All right, well, look, guys, that's the part. And that's a wrap.

Douglas McCormick

[00.45.32]

 Great, Shane, thank you very much indeed. And guys and girls listening to this. Thank you. Um, it's been my pleasure.

Shane Mahi

[00.45.39]

 Cheers, mate.