Mark Harrison: How Callisto Grand Redefined Credit Management and Built a Global Community

Shane Mahi

[00.00.05]

 Mark, welcome to the Connect podcast. Glad to have you here today. Thank you for joining. I like to get right into the conversation, as you know. So Mark, who you are, what do you do and why?

Mark Harrison

[00.00.21]

 Okay. Thank you very much for welcoming me. Um, my name is Mark Harrison. I'm the founder CEO of Callisto Brand. We are. Uh, um, how do we say we're a consultancy? A share of best practice in all things credit and order to cash. We're, um, based in Central Europe, but we're working all over the world. Well,

Shane Mahi

[00.00.50]

 um, why should we?

Mark Harrison

[00.00.51]

 Why should they stay on one

Shane Mahi

[00.00.53]

 hour? We've got one

Mark Harrison

[00.00.54]

 hour. Um. Let's see, I think really, because, um, I've been doing this for more than 40 years. Um, and I think not all my opinions kind of conform to accepted norms, should we say so? Hopefully I'll, uh, I'll fire a few things out there that might make people think about things a little bit differently.

Shane Mahi

[00.01.16]

 I love that. I love that so much. Tell us a little bit more in detail about this.

Mark Harrison

[00.01.23]

 Magnificent. Thank you. Well, it kind of started literally 14 years ago today. It popped up on LinkedIn. Today is my14th anniversary. Yes, yes. Thank you. And congratulations. Um, and, um, so I've been working in credit auditor cash, primarily in the B2B area all my working life since the, uh, really since the end of the 1970s. Um, in 2005, I had, uh, the opportunity to move to the Czech Republic to essentially set up a,um, a shared service center or the, or the credit side of a shared service center multinational in, uh, in the Czech Republic. Um, so that was a fascinating experience. It was something new, this kind of business model, um,took, uh, it took kind of three years, really, to, to establish it, to, uh,settle everything, stabilize everything, and indeed grow it as well. We grew quite rapidly as well. Um, then I moved to another company, a much bigger American organization, but still in shared services, still in the CzechRepublic. Um, but I was kind of finding that the, um, the, the challenges, the opportunities, etc. were pretty much the same in both companies. Uh, started talking to people on the circuit and asking if their experiences were the same,because 20 years ago, shared services were to some degree still in their infancy, uh, particularly in this part of the world. Um, and that just kind of got me thinking, really, that, uh, there's an opportunity, um, I was getting to that time of life. I thought, well, am I going to stay corporate forever? Um,or, you know, this is my kind of. Is this my kind of calling, you know, to do something, to share my experience really with, with other people and my passion and energy and enthusiasm for the world of credit. Um, so that was kind of thestart, um, building the brand. Well. That, um, that kind of really kind of started very early on in the company. Um, it kind of went. I kind of went full time with it in 2012. Um, and so at the beginning of 2012, and one of the things you wanted to do to build a community was we started running conferences. Uh, our first conference in Prague was pretty small. I think there were about 40 people. I think we had one kind of sponsor, you know, who kind of put their name to the event. Um, uh, but it's kind of just steadily grown over the years from, from then, really. And now, um, we've just completed our credit. Masters 13 in Prague. You were there. Um, and you saw it's grown into something sort of five times bigger. Um, we had, uh, around, I think we had a dozen different partners there, uh, 200 and odd people. So, um, so that's very much part of the brand, plus using LinkedIn. Um, and also, um, I think perhaps a message for any entrepreneur. Um, you still got to do a lot of door knocking and get through a lot of shoe leather. You know, you can do so much through thePC, so much through social media, but you still have to meet people. You got to shake hands. You got to talk. You know, I was averaging, uh, something like30,000km a year around Central Europe by train alone. Right. So yeah. Yeah. So That's a lot of that, a lot of schlepping. Wow. Yeah. So but. Never complain,never complain. But yeah, a lot of work in trains, train stations, airports,you know, so on and so on. So you must

Shane Mahi

[00.04.58]

 have built up a thick skin then, fornetworking, building a community. CG Callisto Gran is quite, quite the spectacle of an event. It was one of, I'm not going to lie, I've been to massive trade shows where I've been to the Abu Dhabi trade show for oil and gas Adnoc. Um, that was what, 20 or 30,000 people? I've been to an expo. There's A bunch of big conferences there. But what was unique about Callisto Gran was like a community. A lot of people knew each other, right? A lot of people, and they were very familiar with it. And it seemed like as you dive deeper into some of those conversations, those relationships have been established for,

Mark Harrison

[00.05.40]

 That is actually very true. And that was from the conference perspective. It was something that we very consciously setout with, with, um, my team that various things really did. Um, I went. I've Been to a lot of conferences. They can either be here first. Controversial Statement maybe. Um, and he goes on my invitations for any conferences in the future. Um, they often can be, uh, sterile, cold, you know, you can walk in,get your registration, get your badge, and, like, nobody talks to you. Yeah.Um, and then also the presentation side, they can be a little bit disjointed.Uh, I remember going to an event years ago. It was very expensive, you know,two and a half, three grand or something like that. And each presenter was coming up, like with a flash disk, putting it in the side of the PC. Then you see all the screens open up and all the, you know, or it's not that version,it's that version. You'd have this kind of awkward five minutes or so before they find the right presentation. And I thought for two and a half grand, I'dwant something a bit slicker than that. So I was very lucky when, when we were,when we did our very first conference, I had a friend of mine, I kind of just shared my ideas. And so this is kind of how I'd like it to look. We have no.Know kind of joins in the presentation. So there's you know it's it one just slides into the next one. Um, and that's kind of been a more or less a watch word ever since. Every now and again we have the odd faux pas, shall we say. But Generally that's one of our things, you know, that when people come into the room, the presentation is ready and, you know, there's a lot of effort that goes into that. Um, and the other thing is really being a warm reception. Um,you said about a community, um, we've had a number of people that have been with us since day one, our very first conference. Um, and, um, you know, a lot of those, when they first came, were juniors, you know, they were, you know,hadn't long been in the industry themselves. Now it's really nice to kind of grow up with these people. You know, now they're senior managers and they're bringing their colleagues along and so on. But then throughout. So that builds a nice feeling of familiarity, you know. We know we know a lot of these people either whether they're vendors or they're, you know, paying attending guests.Um, a lot of these people we know, we know them pretty well, you know, we know their, uh, sort of family situations or whatever else, you know. So these are relationships beyond just the binary sort of. We're giving a conference. Give Us your money, rock up, do your thing and clear off two days later, you know,and, uh, and our team. I think you saw that when you came. Shane, you know, our team are people who naturally are warm and welcoming people, you know, so we recognize that if people are going to spend a few hundred euro and they're going to put themselves out for 2 or 3 days with us, the we kind of give them something that's memorable, you know, and we try, you know, as much as we can.So it's a very conscious effort. Um, and I've got a great team behind me, uh,Esther Pavlovna and the others, um, they, um, you know, they've been with us for quite a few years. Um, so we're in that nice position as well that they know what to do, you know, and they just go off and do their thing and, uh, um,and that that all kind of adds to the, the continuity and the, um, the, the warmth, you know, and, uh, but but in other areas, I mean, you know, when we do our training courses, we do our workshops, we do our online, you know, our various online events. Uh, a kind of watchword, I suppose, really, is to involve the audience, you know, and an example of that is whenever we do anything with a partner, our the first thing we kind of say is no selling, youknow, tell a story, do a case study, but don't sell directly from the stage,whether it's a virtual stage or it's a physical stage, because that's boring.You know, that's been done to death. We don't do that anymore. Right? You know.So.

Shane Mahi

[00.09.44]

 There is a common theme. It's a very common theme that has happened in the past across a number of events, and it actually leads into the conversation that me and you are going to bring up or build upon about dining club events. And these are like private events that companies come to and have an intimate setting. And the initial thought processes, oh, great, I have an idea to pitch my product in front of ten people at a restaurant, and we're like, if you do that, we will buy you as a client and we will never bring you. Yeah, we will never bring you delegates again because people don't understand or people have lost sight, I think, and I'd love to hear your opinion. People have lost sight of the educational element and the awareness. Like what awareness actually means. It doesn't mean we're here.We've got the best features and products. It's educating them that there is a problem that exists and through certain means such as Callisto, Grand, multiple events, communities, societies, we're able to educate you on how to solve these with a like minded community. And I think that has been like really, really offset quite a bit in the past, let's say ten years. Why do you

Mark Harrison

[00.10.55]

 Do you think that? I think there's a maxim, isn't there, in the sort of sales side of things that people buy at the end of the day. Right. And that's, uh. Um, there's, there was still kind of urgency, I think, particularly through the Covid time and perhaps just shortly after two to sell, you know, you thought there were a lot of webinars, a lot of podcasts going on. Um, you know, quite naturally that evolved because of circumstances. But it was a bit like I was describing the conferencething incoming second controversial statement, um, that, um, the online presentations also became very formulaic. Yeah. Formulated very quickly as well. Um, and it was just, you know, we are X company. This is our product, youknow, and the slides would be processed flows and all the rest of it, um, which is important. But you can tell that story in a different way, you know, like,like you said in the, in your dining clubs, you can tell that story, but you tell it through a context, through a case study, through other ways, you know,not just, you know, we are a company. We've got 10 million customers. We're the best in the world, yada yada. You know, that's, uh, that's not for you to say.That's for others to decide and for them to work out. Yeah. So, um.

Shane Mahi

[00.12.12]

 Exactly. Or you just leave that withApple. But

Mark Harrison

[00.12.16]

 even even Apple would say they even Applewould say they don't sell products. They sell a lifestyle, don't they? Youknow, so uh, which which again is appealing to the emotive side rather than,yeah, they say themselves it's a mobile phone, you know, or, you know, whateverproduct it is, it's no, you know, people will say it's different, but at theend of the day it's a mobile phone or it's a PC or whatever, you know, it'sit's the it's the emotion that goes with owning an Apple product, isn't it? Youknow, it's, uh, which is a different thing. And that's, um, that's I guessthat's kind of when we grow up, that's what we want to be, you know? No, notsay as big as Apple, but, um, sort of that kind of recognized more as alifestyle choice rather than just, you know, we're going to buy a qualificationor a, you know, workshop or conference tickets. It's more than that. Yeah. Um,and just staying on that. Um, so as I said, we try to kind of sort of reshapethe conference experience here a little bit, you know, with it, um, just justcarrying on that side of things, we, we throw a lot of, um, uh, a lot of effortat the conference, you know, with lights and music and other things as well, tomake it a more, you know, sort of a. As we say, sensorial is stimulating,right. But, uh, um, and I suppose what we, what we kind of developed, um, onthe webinar side of things where we run two most months, we have one that wecall the Credit and Collections Coffee Club, and another one we call the CreditClinic. Um, and these evolved over time, um, to be very interactive, right? Tobe pretty much like we're doing now, you know, we'd have a, um, a subject, we'dhave a subject leader, subject matter experts. They would talk about theirsubject for 15 or 20 minutes within an hour session. Um, and then we very muchopen it to the audience, you know, and they can either comment, um, verbally orthey can comment through the chat. And, and my role as a moderator, you know,was really to keep the conversation going. So it's kind of it's live and the other nice thing about it is you, you have a, you know, a rough idea of where you want to go, But what I always enjoy is we invariably finish off 100 miles from where we started or where we thought we would finish. You know, we thought, this is the subject, this is what we're going to cover, and we'd end up somewhere else, and that's great. Um, and I think that's why we're building a decent sized audience as well if we average 75 people for our events online.Um, and, um, and different people. It's always a mix. Um, because it's a, it's a safe environment where people can have their say, you know, they can make comments, they can have a joke as well. Um, but it's, you know, it's not it's not just somebody preaching something at you. It's not the gospel or whatever.It's, you know, here's our story. Uh, you share your experiences of whatever today's subject is. And, and I think we've built a kind of, uh, a trust area around that, you know, that, uh, you know, if somebody wants to make a comment,they can, you know, and it's it's.

Shane Mahi

[00.15.31]

 Mm.

Mark Harrison

[00.15.33]

 It is nice.

Shane Mahi

[00.15.35]

 It is nice, it is nice. It's nice to see that you have the type of setup where you enter an event, and you can have two individuals or even three individuals speak to you or at you for an hour. But Ithink what was unique, number one, the fact again, I don't think it's anything new, but to be able to pass a microphone around and have people really get involved in the conversation through those shots that I think was really impacting, um, I think the biggest notable appearance or let's just say activity you did at the event was, uh, the panel on stage, the on stage panel, but then also the floor to ceiling, uh, TV screens you had on those things, which it make it look like a, like a really, really, really stand up event. Like all of these things, they really separate yourself from others. But I want to take a step back, okay? A lot of people come to this podcast because they're looking for inspiration to take their lives from a place of normality, which isn't exactly the worst thing to be, but they want to get out of normality. They'vecome to an environment where they're at home, they're with their family,they're consuming social media, they're seeing all this opportunity around them. And you have two choices. Two choices that I was able to make, which is you could be a bum or you can actually pursue something. Through pandemic, through ovid. I pursued my dream. Now, in 2005, you went and built your first sharedservice center. But in 2012. So seven years, it sounds like you earned your stripes. What were the biggest challenges? You said there were similar challenges, but specific to what were those exact challenges that you were coming up against, and what was the most prioritized challenge that would come up? Most Oftenly that you're like,

Mark Harrison

[00.17.29]

 This is rubbish. From the shared service center perspective, the biggest challenge was and probably still is communication, right? Um, because you I mean, the whole idea of shared services is you centralize finance functions away from the mothership, right? And if you take that so simply, most big organizations have accounting offices in many major cities around, say, Western Europe. And they would consolidate them inPrague or Budapest or Brno, where I was or, you know, somewhere like that. Um.

Shane Mahi

[00.18.04]

 I want to jump on that just very quickly.The question I asked when I was, well, why the hell are we in Provo for this?So for those that are watching, I'm thinking, why is this guy in Prague? Or why do I keep hearing about Central Europe for finance? So just touch on that real quick. Why are all these events, why did your event

Mark Harrison

[00.18.22]

 What happened? How it kind of evolved as you go back to the 1990, basically when the fall of communism happened right acrossEastern Europe. Well, you know, that side of, uh, that side of Europe and then,um, a, a whole, um, a whole new world opened up, you know, the accessible world, um, with the millions of really smart, well-educated, uh, young people,uh, qualified or with degrees and so on. We're now, you know, kind of a, uh,now became available, uh, to, to employment. Um, these countries needed, uh,boosts as well, you know, as they come out of the communist kind of world. Sothey were also looking for, um, FDI from the West. So it was kind of easy . The Shared service center model had been going in, uh, uh, in like in, in theNetherlands and, um, 1 or 2 other places, or we should just call it like centralized accounting or something like that. But the concept had been around.So it was kind of a natural sort of, um, evolution, you know, that, uh, major corporations are always looking for ways to reduce costs. And here was a very talented, uh, talent pool at, you know, one half or one third of the, the,the FTE costs of Western Europe, shall we say. Um, who could do it, who could do a comparable job? Um, and then you get economies of scale by centralizing things, you can cut out duplication, you can standardize processes and so on.Um, so that's um, that was why the kind of potted version of how services evolved. Um, so that's why I ended up in Bruno. Yeah. Um, and we just the other thing, the other critical thing about why we kind of do our conferences around the major cities of Central Europe, um, is the shared service center world is all English speaking as well, right? It's the business language. So there were no sort of barriers through language, even though the centers like mine, uh, my second one are responsible for 15 different countries, you know, all under one roof. So, uh, cash allocation and collections and, um, and all the other associated credit functions, they were, you know, the 15 different countries,but the common language was English. So. So, yeah. So, um, the chat. Wow. The Challenges from the other side, um, from establishing Callisto was, um, because there was one of the drawbacks, and I think that the, the, the chickens are really kind of come to roost on this now is the, the majority of corporate since, um, you know, since the sort of the 90s through to very recently, they really focused on the cost saving side of things. So the, the, the king of the concept of investing in their talent, you know, through professional qualifications and so on, um, was one that was very difficult to persuade a lot of people. Right. You know, so, uh, why do we need to train people? If somebody leaves, I can get another one. You know, there's a never ending conveyor belt of young, talented people. Um, so that was our biggest challenge, um, really was convincing people that in the Western Europe, in the United States, having professional qualifications, best practices, etc., for credit, um, is a given.You know, there are some very well established organizations in the West, um,and the not still thankfully, they're still not here in this part of the world.So I shouldn't have said that because they'll all come steaming over now and,you know, we'll have competition, but um, but, but but um, yeah. So, that was our biggest challenge. Um, and I was talking about communication within the shared services, it was. Really, there was a lot of resentment to start as well, because, you know, the practical realities for people in France or the UKor, you know, Germany, Netherlands, they were losing their jobs and these jobs have been transferred to other countries. So when you were going through a period of transition, you know, sort of knowledge sharing and so on, it was quite a normal reaction. I probably would do the same, uh, say, well, you know,I'm not really going to help here. You know, you take my job, you work it out,you know. So, uh, so there was a lot of that, um, but and even even with the,the people that stayed like the sales teams and so on, you had a geographic split and you had a real kind of communication split, you know, so we're in this part of the world. You're in that part of the world. Um, so the hardest thing really was to bring the two together, you know, and, and even though you might be 1000 km apart, you know, to bring the, um, to get people to understand each other, that, you know, we're all on the same side here, you know, and these young, young people kind of coming out of university and coming into this workplace where they don't know any different, they didn't know the history.It's not their fault, you know, that they're somebody who got made redundant.You know, it's, you know, so, uh, you got to deal with what you gotta deal with, you know, so my, my role as a sort of the particularly in the first job,you know, when I was sort of helping to build this center was, was really to build these bridges, you know, and it took a lot, you know, it took a lot of effort because there was a lot of pushback, indifference, you know, call it what you like. So you had all sorts of all sorts of challenges as well as, youknow, trying to train people up in jobs that had never been done before. Um, youknow, the complexity of the credit world and its importance. Um, she had all these things kind of going on simultaneously. So it was a fantastic learning curve. And it still is. Those opportunities are still there so many years later. So was there a breaking point for you? I'll give you an example. So for me, my breaking point, when I told this story a couple of times now, I was working, I was a top seller at my company publishing house. I made my way to the CEO's yacht in Cairns, so 15 of the top performing people made whoever sold the most in the company. The CEO flew us out to Cairns, uh, put us on what was it, a 40, 50 foot yacht. And we sailed around the ocean for a couple of days,and it was just absolutely incredible. And through that heightened period of success for me, I had clients that I was trying to retain and continuously build upon, and the marketing function of my business started to, let's say,cut costs, cut corners. And these cutting cost activities impacted one of my clients. And the client came back to me and he had a go at me, and it wasn't really good. It wasn't nice. Um, I went and asked the marketing director, what on earth has happened here? And her answer was, we've delivered the KPI, we've delivered the guarantee. What is this conversation about? And the conversation was actually yeah, you delivered the guarantee. But the guarantee was to provide pre-qualified leads.

Shane Mahi

[00.25.37]

 We've had a team from a third world country called diesel EADS. Um, as in the customer to the customer knew who these leads were in some cases and called them and said, hey, thanks for registering the webinar, registering for the webinar. And the contact said, I Don't know what you're talking about. So he called a few more and the same thing happened a couple of times. And then that reaction obviously was uncomfortable for me. And that conversation with the marketing director and you basically damaged my integrity. You've ruined my reputation with my client.Like, what on earth is going on that feud, that dispute ended up in, uh, not a nice situation. And I ended up quitting. And it was because marketing at a bigger company focused on the guarantee to the client versus delivering value to what the expectation was that or the promise we said we would deliver. So That was my breaking point. To end my life as an employee and start my journey as thinking I could become an entrepreneur. What was yours in that 2005 to 2012 period?

Mark Harrison

[00.26.46]

 Yeah, that's a good that is a goodquestion. Um, in second half, second half of 2011, I think it was I wasapproaching a landmark age and so on heading in that direction. Um, and say Ihad this, this good job. I had a, you know, company car and the own office andI, you know, travel. What kind of car? It was a Volkswagen Passat, but it wasvery nice. It was very nice. Automatic two liter. I was, well, happy with it.Um, and, um. No, no, I loved it. And, um, it, uh. Yeah, I was pretty well domore or less to a degree what I wanted, you know, I could travel a lot, and Idid. I went to a lot of new locations because I, I could, um, and it was, butit was interesting. I felt it was important to go to these places. So I went toDubai and Cairo and other locations that actually hadn't been visited by headoffice before. Um, yeah. And they were it was a great experience for me, youknow. Um, but I was getting to a point where I'd been working corporate thenfor a. More than 30 years, um, getting to this sort of age landmark. And, uh,um, I had a bit of a health scare. Nothing serious, but a health scare. It waskind of the universe telling me, you know, I'm knocking me pipe out. And, youknow, I'm working all the hours, living in airports, traveling everywhere. Onthe face of it, a billion people would swap roles with me. This is true, youknow? But, uh, um, I guess I was just kind of burning out, and, um, so I had abit of a health scare, and it just kind of started me thinking, you know, am Igoing to be corporate forever? Um, or, you know, do I want to sort of, youknow, get to the end and be days, look back and say, at least I had a go, youknow, whether it works or not. If I had to go. So so I did what? Probably whatall smart people do at the, uh, you know, kind of the peak of the last majorrecession. Um, I gave up a well-paid job with a car at the office andeverything else. Didn't particularly have a business plan. Um, other than whatwas in my my my head and my heart, um, because it was hard to. It was hard towrite a business plan for a business that had no, uh, comparison really, inthis part of the world, you know, take it to a bank and say, I want to set up acredit control training organization and all that, and they go, okay, like.Like who? And I go, oh, there's a there's one in the UK that's kind of similar,you know? So there wasn't much and I could say, you know, business plan. Icould say, yeah, we're going to make a million every year. I could make upanything. Yeah. There was no. Yeah. Of course there was no basis at all. Butbut really that was the. That was the catalyst. Um. And I tell a story, if Imay. When I started work when I was 16. Um, my first job was in, uh. What wasthe Midland Bank at the time is now HSBC. So I went into, um, my first day wasin a branch in, um, in usually, uh, West Drayton area, so near the airport.Okay. Um, I don't know if the branch is still there. I went in there as a Ijust turned 17. I think, um, it'd be suit and tie and all the gear on, and, uh,I was introduced to the manager, and he spoke to me a little bit and said, oh,you can have a job for life. And you know this as it was back in those days,you know. Um, yeah. And I remember thinking even then, as a 17 year old with noreal experience of what, no experience at all of working really, apart from thepaper around and stuff like that. Um, I thought, no, this isn't for me. I'll doit, you know, because I have to do it. But this ain't going to last forever.Um, but I had no idea what I was going to do. Um, but I just kind of very earlyon adopted this attitude that wherever my work takes me, I'm building towardssomething. I really had this instinct, um, and say, so 30 odd years later whenI got to that, uh, that kind of thinking point, I kind of it kind of dawned onme, um, I'll make it dramatic. You know, I was lying in a hospital bed and allthis stuff, you know? And I suppose it kind of dawned on me that actually,maybe all these 30 years, this is what I want to do, you know, um, you know,this is sort of the catalyst for change. So, it more or less started at that point. Um, and then I just just kind of. Check a few things, do a few things,organize a few things, and organize a few things. And uh, um, and then yeah, so at the beginning of 2012, I was having my annual review with my boss, and, uh,he's giving it all the usual, uh, patter, you know, well done in 2011. And, youknow, these are our plans for 2012. And I said, well, stop, stop, stop, stop,stop. You know, um, I'm done. Right? You know, so that's just kind of. Wow.Yeah. Let's just kind of organize my exit strategy. I'll do six months or, youknow, whatever. And, uh, um, yeah. So that's what you do, uh, the height of a recession, you know. So yeah, it was kind of I mean, there were other circumstances, but January, that was it, you know. So, um, that's the

Shane Mahi

[00.31.52]

 the most memorable one. Yeah. And

Mark Harrison

[00.31.53]

 I just literally just stepped off the edge of the key and, you know. Wow.

Shane Mahi

[00.32.01]

 That's a bold move.

Mark Harrison

[00.32.02]

 Yeah, but that's a bold move. But I guess you get to a point, don't you, where you just know you can't do something anymore, right? You just have to. Yeah. You just have to stop. So yeah, that's what I mean, yeah. You know, that's the short version. Wow,

Shane Mahi

[00.32.18]

 I like that look. Okay cool. So we've got2012 now. So you've had this conversation with your boss. Uh. Uh, this is exactly the type of thing I want people to hear. That conversation of you having that conversation with your boss and saying, stop. I'm done. That's Really the message I really want to drive home for people that they can do it.It's not just. Um, so you, uh, what was it like? What did you feel like in that office that day when you mustered up the courage to say, I'm done?

Mark Harrison

[00.32.47]

 Oh, it was good.

Shane Mahi

[00.32.48]

 Relieved or anxious? No. Um, I suppose there was a degree of anxiety of, you know, not knowing you're not going to get a paycheck at the end of the month and that kind of thing. And, you know,giving up something you've been doing for 30 odd years. Um, but on the other hand, I thought, no, you know, this is this is I say, I've always put a lot of trust in instincts. Um, a lot of the stuff we do within Callisto, it doesn't come from anywhere in particular, just, you know, ideas appear. And so it's still very much gut instinct, which is. Which is what I couldn't do in the corporate world. You had to conform to pretty well everything. Um, drowning inidiotic management speak, you know, and things like that, you know, and, andpeople going around, you know, sort of. You know, it just wasn't the world Was comfortable in. And I knew that from a very early age. I was yeah, I was probably the I knew I was one of the world's worst employees. Um, but I was good at what I did. Everywhere I worked, I brought, I brought improvements, andI brought success, and I think I left behind a decent legacy. Um, my thing was,I couldn't, um. Yeah, in the early days, I did kind of six years in different companies and so on. Um, I through the 90s and up to the point of going to, uh,go into the Czech Republic, I started doing a lot of contract work. Um, and that suited me perfectly, you know, I'd be doing short term projects indifferent companies. So I built up such a great knowledge, I got to meet so many people. Um, so I guess when I was doing sort of longer term employee jobs,you know, as it was,

Mark Harrison

[00.34.31]

 because my brief in most of these was to fix things quickly, you know, doing a lot of rescue work on receivables and things like that. Um, so, you know, the corporate world can sometimes be quite slow in decision making and things like that. And, uh, I'd already got used to working at a much faster pace, you know, of decision making, because we had to,uh, so I was doing rescue work. You couldn't kind of think about something for six months. If your client was going to be wound up in three months, you know,you had to hit the ground running and do whatever you had to do, you know? So,uh, so that was a great schooling as well. And it. Of course, it also kind of helps to realize that every business is pretty much the same. You know? Yeah,make stuff, sell stuff, get paid for stuff. All that changes is the stuff.Yeah. Right. You know. So yeah. So that also gave me a great schooling, Ithink. And um, the other thing I did that was significant for me personally, at the same time through literally the 2005 to 2010, was that a degree course came available at, um, what is now the University of West London. It was ThamesValley Uni back then. Um, this degree in credit management came along. Um, and one of the sort of big gaps in my personal confidence was I didn't have a degree. So I left school with three O-levels, um, two in English, one in history, which doesn't really, doesn't really equip you for a life in credit.Um, so, um, or does it, you know, um, so, yeah. So this degree course came along in credit management. It was great because it meant once a month I would return to West London, where I come from the other side of the airport from you. Um, and, um, so it was good. I could come and see my family. I was in a classroom at the weekend, an intensive weekend once a month with like minded people who are of a similar age, and we're all mature students and so on and so forth. So getting that degree also gave me a lot of confidence as well. I'd kind of fill the void that, you know, I wouldn't say I didn't have a chip on my shoulder, but it gave me a little bit more wind in me, sails to go and do whatI wanted to do. And, um, you know, I could then say to these potential clients,hey, I'm qualified, you know? So, uh, you know, I have a professional qualification, I have a degree in credit management, you know, and at that time, there was nobody else in mainland Europe who had that qualification. So, uh, so,

Shane Mahi

[00.36.55]

 so a good way to separate yourself from the pack.

Mark Harrison

[00.36.57]

 Yeah. I mean, in a world where everybody has university degrees in mainland Europe, um, it didn't mean that much, but it meant a lot to me, you know? So, yeah. So of course, that was also part of the sort of the, the, I know all part of the, the process, if you like, in getting to that point of moving on. All right. So let's say two part two. Two part question on the next one. So you leave this place. Obviously the feeling of leaving it gives you a sense of relief. Now you enter the world of entrepreneurship and you're in it. That's it. You're now in the deep end and there's nobody coming to save you. It's it's it's one of the most soul

Shane Mahi

[00.37.45]

 crushing, but character building journeys I've ever been on in my life. And it was just absolutely fantastic. So walk me through what it was like the first couple of years. And when did you recognize that your business was successful for you? Okay. Um, the first couple of years were really tough. Um, no bones about it, you know, because we had. No. So we had no safety net. We had no investors, nothing like that. We. And when I say we, it was me basically to start and, um, somebody helped me part time with accounting and stuff like that. Um, it was there that the majority of the nights were sleepless. I think that's fair to say. You know, it was soul destroying, heartbreaking. You know, the amount of people that said, no, you know, you get a lot of doors slammed in your face. Um, so

Mark Harrison

[00.38.40]

 you it takes quite a while, uh, to realize that it's not personal, you know, it's. And he is just the thing I really like, I suppose. What when I look back on it, what you constantly go back and think, well, how could I do that differently. How could I do that better? You know, how can I have that same conversation but in a different way and get a different result? So you, you and I think this was probably the main thing I wanted to do, but working on my own was to be creative, you know, and um, and so yeah. So, um, there was, there was nothing particularly enjoyable about the first few years, you know, it was just uphill, uphill, uphill. And everybody you spoke to, you'd have to start all over again and explain yourself just by yourself, you know, try and persuade, you know, and you go through the same decision making loop time after time. And invariably it would either come back with a no or it would come back. Well, okay. You know, we, we, we have 100 people, but you can train two, you know, and prove the concept, you know, and then yes.

Shane Mahi

[00.39.42]

 So yeah, that is my favorite word. Yeah. Prove the concept. So that's you know, that's um that's tough. But you can understand it from other people's point of view. You know, you are an unknown concept. So you got to so let's say so you have to kind of keep thinking of ways to, um, you know, to, to kind of make that gap shorter, you know, from introducing and how.

Mark Harrison

[00.40.06]

 And how long did it take you till you fell? Let's not say successful because people define success in their own way,but let's say the first time. So the first time I felt the biggest sense of fulfillment was I had taken on. So I worked with this client when I was an employee. Uh, the two campaigns that we delivered for that client absolutely bombed so badly that she said, this is the worst, uh, webinar and activity I've Ever done in the history of my career. It wasn't on me, but I was very, very diligent in making sure the relationship was maintained. Fast forward a couple of months. That relationship ended up ending up being one one of my first three clients and that first, that that third client worked with them for. What was it, 7 to 8 months in month seven after like an absolute nightmare of a journey, even going up and down trying to she was the one who, uh, I actually figured out my business and how it worked and how to deliver to customer expectations. But she said, I've, uh, we've closed, uh, three contracts valued at €100,000.You've done a good job. And I said, okay, cool. So are you going to pay me? Pay me some more money. She said you are also the most expensive system in my entire arsenal. So I said, all right, cool. But I got to go back to my team and say, guys, this works.

Shane Mahi

[00.41.36]

 This process, this business we've built, we only had four people. It works. And they signed a $128,000 sorry pound contract with us for six months to deliver them three reps after that. That's How successful that was my biggest sense of fulfillment. And when I had that check that that money received, you know what that feeling is like when you receive teaching money, receive teaching money, receive teaching 40,000 in 1month, first and last month payment like that for me was and then it just carried on. My agency carried on growing from there. So for you, being a colossal brand, what was the convincing moment that you felt fulfilled? Yeah, I think when you, um, it was kind of probably 2 or 3 levels to that. Right? I think, um, the first one was when you. Guess when you get your first contract, you first deal. Right. So. Okay. So yeah. So there is somebody out there. Yeah. And somebody out there believes in this. Um, so that's probably one thing. A few years later, um, when you'd meet people on the circuit and they would start quoting phrases that I'd given to them in a training course that I use, you know, I've been using that calculation. I've been using that phrase or whatever whenever anybody new joined. So it's like the first thing I tell them, right. You know, you think, wow, so and you don't know that, you know, until somebody kind of tells you so it's so then that starts to give you a belief that there's like an ecosystem going on that, you know, one person will tell you something, but there's probably a hundred others doing the same thing. So even though you don't know it, that gives you real belief. Um, the next kind of level of sales, when we got our sort of bigger contracts, we sort of international companies where we were training, qualifying the whole team, you know, like a hundred people, things like that. So then, you know, then so then we've really got something in our, um, you know, in our sort of, uh, our arsenal, you know, these big, well-known global names. You know, we've trained every single person that's possible and we've given them a professional qualification ourselves. Um, and then I think the last level, really, I think the most recent one really was the Prague conference where we, you know, we went up a level in terms of scope and scale and size and, um, everything we did was bigger than what we'd done before. Um, and that's, you know, the feedback we've had from that in the last six weeks since the conference, you know, in terms of social media responses or inquiries from, you know, companies for training and the our core business and, uh, um, also other other potential partners, you know, who also saw sort of the feedback and we have had a couple of messages where people have said, you know, we we've been talking to so and so and they said nothing, nothing but good about the Prague event or, you know, your qualification program. So, that's kind of where we are now, you know, um, so that's taken us to a level. But we've, we've still got a long way to go, you know. So, uh, there's, we've still got many more ambitions to achieve with Central Europe Will always remain our core. There's still an awful lot of, uh, organisations we've still got to connect with. Um, uh, but we're also looking further afield as well. We're looking to, you know, we're doing an event in London in Markh,you know, as a, um, as our first in sort of Western Europe. Um, and we've got our eyes on a much wider field beyond, beyond Europe as well, you know. So, uh,as you guys said, think big, you know. So which is that's very true,

Mark Harrison

[00.45.10]

 which is quite inspirational, actually. Yeah. You know, to, you know, the higher you are, the higher you go. Yeah. So.

Shane Mahi

[00.45.18]

 That North Star thinks big. It is a mantra that we live by. So for those that before we end this segment and go into the next one, those that believe success is an overnight achievement. For Perspective, give the viewers an ideal approximation of how many years it took to recognize a sense of success in terms of fulfillment.

Mark Harrison

[00.45.42]

 Yeah, I think Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000hours is probably not far off. You know, I, I learned my trade through, you know, working in a corporate environment and very, you know, as a on the paid side. So I, you know, I've done more than 10,000 hours there. That's around about five years. Um, and then I did it all over again, you know, when I, when I, you know, stepped onto the entrepreneur side. So I would say probably five years. Yeah. You know, before you kind of got, you got a good you got a good confidence, a good repartee. You know, you got good, you got a reasonable amount of references in your pocket that you can share and things. So yeah.

Shane Mahi

[00.46.22]

 I think you're absolutely right. Even When I was an employee, I first started to hit the ground running 2015 to 2020.That's when I was able to earn my stripes as a salesman. And then again, coming into the life of an entrepreneur or building your own business, an absoluteamateur and absolute novice, like going through those first, second, third years. One thing that helped me accelerate massively, massively, which is whyI'm you're on today's show, is the importance of coaching and training. And Ihired some top level coaches, some I spent over £150,000, uh, against the teams. Well, about £150,000 in coaching over a two year period. And the amount of knowledge I was able to consume through that and execute was game changing.But I will tell you, it's only till this year is year five, obviously. Andwhat, 4 or 5 weeks away was the only time I really recognized how much of a difference in knowledge I have versus some of the peers that may have maybestarted, maybe at the same time as me or maybe a little bit before me, that was where I was able to recognise it. But last point, last question. When times get tough. When times get really, really hard. There were times where we didn't have money to pay the team and it was, I don't see this thing panning out. I Don't see the runway. That was my business partner. I'm the CEO. I'm the founder. That's not going to happen. I will find a way. Found a way. Got a$15,000 loan and then called up HMRC. And they gave me a 12 week extension on the payment. So again, just thinking creatively out of the box. My resilience and my determination. My discipline. Right. My knowledge of extent is like exhausting resources before you give up. These are things I was taught to really, really shine through. So for you when you went through, tell me about the hardest time you experienced in the first five years, and then tell theaudience, how did you get through it? When times were tough and you wanted to give up, how did you get through it? I think, um, probably a similar thing. Um,you know, we at the end of the day, it's, uh, we had a couple of stages wherewe, we ran out of cash as well, and I, I did actually kind of pay most thingsoff my own credit cards for a while and didn't tell anybody else. Didn't tellanybody else. You know, I just kept that to myself. Um, so that that was tough.But but as you said, I think, uh, I was saying earlier about instincts and, andfaith, you know, so, you know, faith and belief in yourself and that the, youknow, if you if you really believe something's going to happen, then invariablysomething turns up. But until it does, it's very, uh, it's very stressful. Um,so, um. What kind of kept me going, really. I really think it really was justan absolute belief in what I do. What I was doing was the right thing, youknow? And even though other people around me were saying, oh, just knock it onthe head, go back to work, get a job, you know, stuff like that. You know, Ican't go back to work now. You know, I've been five, six, seven years doingthis one. Who's going to employ me? Yeah. And I'd last about, you know, I'dprobably lost a week, you know. So, uh. Um, so. Because. Yeah, you just itwould just do my head in, you know? So. Yeah. So, um, it sounds very tweed,isn't it? But. No, really, just like you were saying earlier, what do you whatdo you build over the years of working for yourself? You you do build a thickskin. Um, but I think that you do you can build a sort of a, you know, an internal sort of belief mechanism that everything will be okay. Um, you do get smart in negotiating as well, like you said. You know, sometimes you have awhacking great big bill. Um, you can't possibly meet it as you would like to at the time. Um, but, you know, you you talk to the other, you talk to the otherperson. I think that's the key thing as a person and say, look, this is mysituation. This is reality. You know, I will have it, but it's going to takeanother 2 or 3 months, right? You know, so just, you know, can we just delay, extend, you know, which is what I kind of been what I've been kind of, uh, what I've been doing in my working life, you know, is listening to people who can't pay me. Um, differentiating between whether that's fact or fiction, you know, whether they can pay but won't or actually genuinely can't pay. And the people that can't pay or the organizations that can't, um, it's very easy as a big company to put the boot in on somebody and say thank you, bye bye. But it's much more rewarding if you can actually help somebody through for a few months, you know, through their difficult times. Um, and come out the other side and, you know, and then they, you know, people remember these things, you know, and, uh, even if it's corporate loyalty, you know, if a company helps somebody, you tend then to stay, you know, whereas if you just say, yeah, you just kind of pull the plug on and then, you know, there's I've been working with you for ten years, you know, so give us a break here, you know. So, um, back to what I said earlier.

Mark Harrison

[00.51.31]

 Of course, at the end of the day, even though we've got amazing technologies like you're doing, we've got, you know, a lot of structure, laws, regulations, everything else that goes into the corporate world. At the end of the day, it's people buying people. It's what it's. Yeah, what it's all about. We must never forget that. I think in this modern world, I think we are too fixated on, you know, balance sheets, profits,that kind of stuff. We're sort of forgetting, you know, the, the wider societal impacts of this, you know, amazing, amazing. So. One thing that's really helpful for anybody listening is advice, recommendations, suggestions on how to take their life forward or like you just went through a challenging moment in your life where an angel was sent from somewhere and gave you a little bit of a little bit of hope, right? And they said, yeah, you know, have you tried this? And same thing for me. I had a mentor. His name is Markus Koski. And um, the first time I met this guy, he ripped into me, ripped into me like I was messaging people on LinkedIn. Hey, I'm starting a business. I have no clue what I'm doing. I'd love to get some help from people who have done it. Spoke to him, ripped into me, saw his kind of profile. He has 242 recommendations, recent recommendations, which is phenomenal. And just the way he approached jobs to bed one, buyer enablement, education around consumer behaviors. Um. It was just incredible. But the best advice I ever heard was only last year when I was going through a big crisis in my life and his name is Jamestown, said to be known as Townsend Wardlaw. And he said, Shane, you know the situation. You Created it. Right?

Shane Mahi

[00.53.26]

 And I said, what do you mean? She did it? She did it. She did it. And he said, no, no, no, no, you're Shane Mahi. Take a step back. You created this everything, every single thing in this chain of events that you're going through, you create it. You are creating the things now that will happen in the next few years. Anything you went through, you created that too. You need to own this right now. Yeah. And everything I do, everything I do, I know I have to own that from start to finish, from start to wherever it proceeded from. Was there any major advice, a mentor, a coach, a friend gave you? Um, that really helped shape who you are today?

Mark Harrison

[00.54.12]

 I've had some very good mentors in business who have coached me in the ways of wherever I was working and how tobe the best I possibly could in the workplace. But I suppose when you put it like that, um, I like what you said there about it. You know, ultimately it's your responsibility. But I think really something about me, something my mother said years ago really was, um. Just be true to yourself. You know, she said that I think when I was a kid, you know, um, and that's something that's kind of constantly resonated, you know, just be true to yourself. Um. Carpe diem. You know, that kind of thing. Um, as you get older, um, as you get older, you know, you see kind of more, more people kind of checking out, you know, that's anormal fact of life. Um, and I suppose the, the main thing the, the, the, the you can learn from, you know, dying is live today, you know, and, you know, I Know that sounds a bit dramatic, but I really do genuinely think that, you know, it's, uh, you know, you. Yeah. Carpe diem. I got that tattooed on my arm. So, uh,

Shane Mahi

[00.55.21]

 You know, I did see that at the event. Yeah,

Mark Harrison

[00.55.23]

 yeah. Well, it's important. Seize the day. Listen up. When I. And I feel the urge to sit on my bum and so to binge watch the telly, you know, sometimes I do on the weekends, but if I. If I have that temptation in the week, I think, uh. Come on, we got things to do, you know. So,

Shane Mahi

[00.55.39]

 uh, it's absolutely true.

Mark Harrison

[00.55.40]

 So. Yeah. Be true to yourself. Be true to yourself, I like that, yeah. Well, look,

Shane Mahi

[00.55.45]

 Mark, we're not done, okay? We are at 55 minutes, but that is the top of the hour. And we have an entire AI segment that we were supposed to.

Mark Harrison

[00.55.59]

 Yeah. All right.

Shane Mahi

[00.56.01]

 Two is I don't know what's happened there. Again, if part two is fully focused on AI for those that are watching who are going to want to watch the next episode. Two uh, I usually touch on what are your views around the evolution of AI? How should credit control teams be using AI in their business to add more revenue? Recover more cash? What are your predictions for credit control credit management over the next six months? What are your biggest concerns with AI being used in a customer environment or for a customer experience? If there's one question you want to really, really answer on the next call about AI specifically, what is that one question you are going to address on that next call?

Mark Harrison

[00.56.44]

 The question I guess we will have is, is AI going to take my job away and there and the answer is it. Yeah. Well we'll save that. We'll save the answer for part two to say that. All right. On that bombshell.

Shane Mahi

[00.57.02]

 All right. I think that's a good way to wrap up the episode. So, guys. For those of you that did watch and found value in this. Uh, Mark Harrison, he's running an incredible series event, one massive event coming up in Mark. We're going to be there. We're going to be sponsoring that. There's a very, very unique community, a very, very interesting community that is part of it. But Mark, for those that want to engage now, they want to know more now, where do they go to find you and more about the company and events?

Mark Harrison

[00.57.30]

 Okay. Well, there's, um, our website, Callisto Grand comm. Um, in the event section, there's all about the London Event. Um, uh, it's also on LinkedIn as well. There's an event set up on LinkedIn or just, uh. I'd love to hear from you. Really? It's Mark Grand. Come Give me a shout. I'd love to talk to you.

Shane Mahi

[00.57.50]

 Awesome. All right. Well, thank you very much. That was a pleasure to have you on. And guys, until next time. That's a wrap.

Mark Harrison

[00.57.58]

 See ya. Thanks a lot. Take care. Bye bye. All right. 

‍

‍

‍

‍