Scaling to 8 Figures: MariAnne Vanella, CEO of The Vanella Group, on Agency Leadership & AI

Shane Mahi

[00.00.00]

 Those questions. we're alive. So we're back. After three months, MariAnne and I had a chance to shoot our first podcast. But as usual, we had software issues and half of the first recording didn't get recorded. So we're back

MariAnne Vanella

[00.00.24]

 to my screen just now. But with. Bruce is the CEO of the company and runs right through it. Who are you? What do you do and why do you do it? So I have had this company for two decades, and I built it originally because I actually used to own an agency in the 90s, in the early 90s, where I worked with a lot of insurance carriers and financial services. And I'm like, you know, I really want to work with tech companies because I saw those budgets as way more consistent. So, you know, in financial services, it's like everybody needed me, nobody needed me, you know? So it was, uh, it was definitely more volatile with tech. It was very consistent. So, um, I had when my agency had cycled out, I actually, um, had taken some executive roles and some tech companies. So then I became a consumer of outsourced services. And one of the things I saw was I couldn't find anybody that I felt good putting in front of our prospects. Um. You know, they were pitching me. Oh, I use this software. Our agents can't get to this screen without answering these questions. And I'm like, okay, that's not the kind of experience that I want to provide to these customers. And what kind of outcomes can I expect? Nobody would make any kind of prediction or anything. It was all about dials and activity. Yeah. So after and in the funny thing was that, um, you know, the whole.com thing was going on and all that and tech became very volatile. So, you know, I went through three acquisitions and I worked with one that was VC funded. And so I'm like, you know what? I'm going to go back and start an agency, but I'm going to build something that I would have hired. So I built this company, which is very different. So even though I market to uh, as B2B telemarketing, it's actually not what we do. It's like that times a thousand. And yeah, and we work with very large enterprise tech companies and we find where there's active sales cycles for them. And then we track it. Um, we provide deep dive, um, documentation in a very narrative style. So when it goes to the team, they can really plan for it and it accelerates their sales process, um, substantially. And it works. So I had one client, they just did a, um, they just did a report recently, and 85% of the leads, the ones that we categorized as leads, converted to opportunities. So that's huge. That's my

Shane Mahi

[00.03.15]

 those are like, you know, low end half million dollar deals at

MariAnne Vanella

[00.03.19]

 Wow. So why though why sales.

Shane Mahi

[00.03.23]

 Uh. Why? I mean, that's kind of where the money's at, right? So, you know, like. And it's a lot of fun. And the thing that I love about this is I work with so much, um, you know, a variety of tech. So I'm never bored. I'm always right in front of emerging trends. Um, you know, the conversations that we have are great conversations, and we're actually helping people to solve problems in their companies, both the companies that we're talking to for clients and also for the clients, we're solving a big problem for them. So it's really rewarding to just be on that front. It's rewarding just to see the impact of it. So

MariAnne Vanella

[00.04.07]

 how does in such a volatile world, you, you all you went through obviously the massive crisis in oh eight then Covid,

Shane Mahi

[00.04.17]

 how does

MariAnne Vanella

[00.04.19]

 one build a business that is able to sustain these volatile economic times? What is the one key thing that you have to do to create a consistent business that can weather those storms?

Shane Mahi

[00.04.34]

 You have to have output that matters. So especially when you're going through a crisis, I find that our demand goes even up further. So and because of the crunch that they're in, they're like, we gotta close deals. We've got to build a pipeline. And so they're facing a crisis. You know, they're like, we got to find somebody to help us. So I have never had a downturn because of any kind of economic crisis. In fact, I've taken on new clients during that time. So I know in the beginning of Covid, some people were totally freaked out. But in the end it ended up being some of our best years during that, um, just because people needed us.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.05.19]

 And was it because you had a strong inbound engine? Was it a great referral network like within the business? What allowed you to stay thriving through all of this?

Shane Mahi

[00.05.34]

 A lot of it is referrals. So I will often work with the company. They had a great experience. Then they go to their new role. First thing they do is bring us in. Um, also, you know, I've got a good inbound, uh, flow, but we're so careful of who we take on because I've got a pretty narrow ICP. So a lot of the companies that call us, I just end up referring to, um, so it's got to be a fit for multiple, you know, kind of metrics that I'm looking for. I'm looking at their volume, their sales. Uh, you know what the total cost of ownership is of their platform. Are they able to execute on our stuff? That's another thing. I really work with them to make sure that their team can handle what we do. Um, you know, we could do a great job, and, you know, it just falls flat, you know, on the front lines because the reps can't engage with it. So, um, and the reason they can't is because they don't really understand what we're delivering because it's so deep. So they'll just get something and say, I'll just call them. And they didn't really read and plan. And at one point I actually worked with an organizational psychologist because that was kind of this ongoing problem if they weren't reading it, and it's not like we're sending them. But, you know, some of these reports have like, you know, 600 word narrative, um, or more and, you know, and in that case, it's generally an opportunity. So they've got to be able to take that baton and go talk to that prospect and don't cover the stuff. You don't need to recover all that ground. You need to take it from there and construct your engagement from that. So one of the problems I had seen over time was a lot of reps just don't like to read and plan. Yep, to that degree. So I worked with an organizational psychologist, and so we constructed a profile format that kind of addresses the people that don't want to read so much, and then the people that plan like crazy and do a great job with it. So, um, that's the way it is, you know, regardless of who gets it, they know what to do, what not to do. Don't do this and make sure you do that and that, that really, um, helped tighten it up a lot. Yeah.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.07.47]

 Because I saw that as the major, the major buying point for me when I was running my agency was our first major client that we had. We took them to, um, they were our first client, longest client. And like, the separation of the client was the worst, too, because, uh, we got we. Well, they spent over £200,000 with us in the first seven months. They generated €100,000. But even through the whole process. The sticking point was always the handover.

Shane Mahi

[00.08.17]

 Yeah, and that's always. And you want to get to a point where you think like when you run, when you first build an agency and you're new to it and maybe you might even not have run a bigger organisation, you expect the handover to go smoothly. This is the name, the title of the person making the introduction and that usually would do it. But then we inherited the phone. And then we started to use phone conversations and then extract the transcript and everything that was gone through the 3 or 4 conversations before it became an opportunity. And then we went a step beyond and above contact details. Then we'd go into just baseline details of the description of the company, what Google News they had, who do they kind of report to and speak to in their network? Um, and then maybe some insightful things that they're looking at tactically and strategically within the company. And these morons would go into these meetings and band them. Yeah.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.09.16]

 And we would and some of some of my reps. It was so funny because I had some of them that were like from a part of London where the accent is like, uh, let's just say they sound like they're from the streets.

Shane Mahi

[00.09.31]

 And

MariAnne Vanella

[00.09.32]

 they're calling me back up. And he's like,

Shane Mahi

[00.09.34]

 Shane, my man Aaron is fucking up my lead. He's fucking talking to him like an idiot, bro. He's like, he's talking to him like an idiot. What should I do? And this would happen every time, every time. And we

MariAnne Vanella

[00.09.46]

 couldn't get to the point where we'd give feedback to the marketing director, who had to then speak to her account executive, who has typically a grown man. Now the the marketing director was a younger woman who reported a woman to so that like that loop was like extremely, extremely volatile up and down. Yeah. And that was the one company that taught us how to create a better handover. So for you, what was it that may help you besides organizational psychology, what other things helped you? For those agency owners that are listening, create a good handover from you, creating a good qualified lead and then passing that over to be used and taken forward without basically fucking it up. Yeah. You know the so I'll tell you the thing you just described that happens with internal teams. So it's not just working with an agency that creates that problem. They could have an outbound BDR team that's doing the exact same thing. And then it goes over to the the Frontline A's and you know, the thing falls apart. Yeah. And it's the exact same things that caused that. And what it is, is a lack of understanding of what was the origin of this thing. So what were they talking about? What was the effort put into it? How hard is this prospect to reach, um, what are they expecting as a next step? What are they not expecting? And don't do this, you know, so it's a matter of, um, documenting it and having a workflow. So I actually wrote, uh, an ebook . It's on our website and you can download it, but it talks about how to outsource successfully. So there's a bunch of things that happens. First off, a lot of companies outsource to an agency. That's a terrible match. Yeah. So they're just like grossly mismatched. Um, everybody's got different expectations. Um, you know, the workflows are all messed up, you know, so that happens all the time. The other thing is, you know, a lot of and this is just. It's not something that's going to go away just because of what it is. But when people think of B2B telemarketing, they imagine being at home and getting calls about their credit cards or their home insurance or you know what I mean? It's like, so you think, tell them what we do think. So they don't put a lot of value on it. And so they think, um, well, we want to do telemarketing, but we don't want to spend a bunch of money on it. So then what they do is they get, um, you know, you know, I wrote an article about this that there's ads out there like telemarketers, B2B telemarketers for $7 an hour. It's like, who are you going to hire for $7 an hour that can talk about a $1 million solution? It's like you're just not going to find them. But companies think cheap. Then they engage these companies. They deliver this like a disaster of a program. And then they say telemarketing doesn't work, okay.

Shane Mahi

[00.12.56]

 You know, so that's the problem is people's understanding of what's going on, how the things are getting handed off, what the reps are seeing. And just like you were saying, that goes to some of the guy's probably totally, um, coachable. He's not going to take advice from a telemarketer who he views as beneath him and skill. Yeah. So they're like, don't tell me what to do. I've been doing this for two decades and I'm not going to take advice from you. So the thing is set up to fail right out of the gate. Um. And, you know, I'll give you an example of something like that. We talked to one and we were calling huge fortune 500 companies. And yeah, we talked to a VP of HR. They were very interested. They gave us so much information. So you should have seen the content on this. It goes to the rep and they basically get hung up on it and I'm like what did they say to them? You know what would have happened if that was the outcome? I thought, that can't be what happened. So we called a person back. Have another great conversation. I said, I guarantee that conversation didn't even register with them as being part of that initial conversation. And it was very hard to synchronize sales and marketing. Um, you know, marketing was kind of behind this wall. You know, they weren't going to tell the reps what to do. They weren't really delivering the things in a way that a rep would spend any time on. They're basically like, hey, here's a lead at such and such column up. And then the person would call and say, well, I'm calling with so-and-so, and I know you spoke with somebody and that you're interested in this thing, and they're like, I'm not interested in that thing, because that wasn't what was discussed. It was a whole, you know, point solution to a problem they were having that you would have had to actually, you know, actually do some selling, of course, and introduce it, bringing it in, you know, so that stuff happens all the time. Um, so the way that you fix it is by making sure you've got a workflow and making sure that it's getting executed on the other side. Like one of the things that I mentioned in the book is a lot of times when companies first start working with you, their senior executives are all excited about it and they're like, yeah, this is great. Over time, maybe they kind of assign the management of the program to someone that's, you know, maybe an admin or a lower level manager, and it's somebody that doesn't have the teeth to affect any change. So you might be making recommendations and they're like yeah, yeah okay. That's great. That's great. They're not doing it. And then the visibility isn't happening at the more senior levels. And then they're looking at this thing and they're like what's going on here? And you can't have that. It's like you've got everybody's got to be involved and you've and you have to know what's going on. I can always tell a company that is going to do well with our program, because I can ask about a certain account like, hey, what's going on with this? And they're like, oh, we did this, this, this. Right. So I'll know that this program is rocking because everybody's all over it. And another company, if I ask about that, they're like, oh gosh, I don't know. Um, I'm looking here in Salesforce. It doesn't really say anything. I'm not sure what's good. And I'm like, okay, so I know that is going to be a problem. So I played it and of course corrected it. But you know, you can't always do that because sometimes they're, you know, they're the ones that are uncomfortable too.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.16.29]

 So what do you see as some of the biggest challenges of an agency owner faces that maybe you've experienced 1 or 2 of them that you can highlight right now and shine a light on how you were able to get through it, kind of weather the storm again in that situation, and then come out on the other side where like, it helped redefine or further define who you are as a person.

Shane Mahi

[00.16.54]

 Yeah. Well, all of it's about differentiating what you do. So are you able to provide consistent long term production for them? Um, you know, a lot of people, you know, and anybody that knows me knows that I hate the selling appointments thing because that whole thing just devalues all the work that goes into it. I pay tens of thousands of dollars for data sources and software and AI, and I mean all the stuff that I pay for. And I'm not going to get paid unless I can set a meeting. And that's ridiculous. This is a whole business. This is an operation. Just like if you did it internally, you would have an operation. And, you know, one of the things that happens is. You know, that kind of stuff falls apart. So if you're setting yourself up by, uh, for failure, by pricing incorrectly, um, then, you know, when the time comes, they're going to say, oh, all these things fell apart. It's like, yeah, well, you've had territory changes three times, you know, the rep stood up at a meeting. Um, that rep doesn't even work there anymore. Nobody's I mean, there's all kinds of things that can happen, so don't set yourself up for failure like that. Um, another thing is you have to be able to demonstrate the value. And I'll tell you something about that. When I first started this company, it's it's a lot of work to set up a client. So, you know, there's, you know, you've got a knowledge transfer, you've got your system customisation, you've got a lot of list building all this stuff. And I looked at it like, I'm putting skin in the game with you. Yeah. So this is how I partner with you as I'm doing all this. And then we're going to hit the ground running. Um, because I did that, they put no value on it. And so I remember one time specifically, I was having a conversation with a client, and they were talking about how, um, well, you've got room to discount because I know you're making money on the back end. I'm like, I'm not making money. Where am I making money on the back end? Right? It's like we're all working on this thing and there's a lot of expense that goes into it. So expense? Yeah. So documenting what you're actually doing to put value on it is very important. So there's a lot of things that they don't necessarily understand if you don't tell them. Because outsourcing is sometimes this black box. Right. Like oh they have lists and they do all this stuff and they email, I'm not sure what they're doing. And then they've got a team, I guess they're calling and stuff. So I don't know, you know, we just get the output. It's great. So, you know, you've got to say this is what happens. Like, yeah, I subscribe to like $60,000 a year with crap. And all of that is to build your pipeline. Plus I have all these data analysts and I've got all these other people and we manually verify everything. And so then they can envision what it would take. Like what would that take to bring this in-house? I mean, it would be impossible because the only reason we're able to do it at scale is because we have multiple clients. So for them to bring an operation like this in-house would just be, you know, cost prohibitive. Yeah. But you have to explain all the things that happen. So it's not like, you know, we've got these millions of names that we just happen to have or, you know, all of that stuff takes a ton of work and a ton of expense, and you've got to have the right people. You've got to have people that understand it. You know another thing, I don't hire sales reps to do this kind of work. So, um, I know we've talked about that before I profile. It's funny, I went to, um, it was a big company. Um, and they're like, well, we want people that have experience in our technology in sales. And I'm like, okay. That is not the skill you're buying. So the skill you're buying is somebody that can call a prospect, a senior level prospect in an organization and get them to stop what they're doing and talk with you for 15 minutes and extract all this information about their initiatives, and then set up a next step. That's not a sales rep. So that skill set is not technology specific either of course. So you know, I hire people that have, you know, like military intelligence or requirements gathering, project managers, journalists, you know, people that know how to have a conversation. Yeah. And that's a completely different profile. Um, I find sales reps are often, you know, just trying to get a meeting. It's like you got them on the phone. You're in a meeting, right? It's like, have the conversation now while you're actually having this meeting, instead of calling them just to ask them to get on the phone again at another time. So you need to have the conversation while you're having them. And that is not always easy to do for reps. Um, so that's why I don't hire sales reps. Uh, they, I just find that other profiles work a lot better because it is very much intelligence gathering.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.22.14]

 Absolutely. So too. So challenges faced or clients not having enough transparency and defining what kind of operation is happening or taking place step by step kind of thing. And then as you wrap that last part up, don't hire salespeople to do it really. And I find this hard to do a very hard job, which is.

Shane Mahi

[00.22.38]

 Uh,

MariAnne Vanella

[00.22.38]

 asking like I never I never understood it. And that's why I had a big problem with it, was how on earth. And it wasn't until I ran a business that I'm able to say this, but how on earth can you hire somebody out of college, or even out of high school and say, this isn't canon, this person's going to do it like they're going to be great. Fair enough. Unless they've run and operated a massive, uh, it's not even a matter just a business with 3 to 4 different functions within that business. And they understand how money works and operations and expenses and profits and everything, how everything moves. There's no way you can call the CEO of a fortune 500 company and say, hey, I understand your business, and I'd like to have not only I'd like to have a conversation with you in the middle of your day, but then I'd also like to have another 15 minutes where I know that you know that if I set up this meeting with this person, they're going to try to sell you

Shane Mahi

[00.23.36]

 something. Yeah. And we all

MariAnne Vanella

[00.23.38]

 know it. They all know it. Nobody's oblivious

Shane Mahi

[00.23.41]

 to make friends, right? It's like you're following them because it's a business opportunity. And if you take that sales call and make it a business call mentality, that also is a very different outcome because all of us get calls from sales reps, and it just kind of feels icky. Oh, yeah. And you know, I just posted on LinkedIn yesterday because someone sent me a connection request. I looked at them. We knew a bunch of the same people. I'm like, yeah, cool, so I accept. Um, then they sent me a note that was like, not a sales pitch. I'm like, oh, that was awesome. Look forward to knowing them. I checked out what they did a little bit. Within an hour, they send me the sales pitch and then it's like, um, and it was actually kind of pushy. It's like, so what date works for you? I have this time in that time and I'm like, okay, first off, I'm not going to show you my financials. I don't even know you. Right. And so why would I do that? And then it's like, why would I engage with you? I've got advisors I've had for years. I've got a CPA that's amazing. It's like, why would I why would I go to you? You know? And so, um, I look at LinkedIn as a great place to nurture relationships. You can start relationships on on LinkedIn, definitely. But to start with a pitch that's, that's pretty lousy. Um, so you need somebody that can navigate business dynamics. Um, they've got to be have a certain level of maturity that they just understand how conversations work. Yeah. Um, and also they've got to have some technical fluency. They've got to understand, you know, enterprise tech, how it works, how companies buy tech. Um, they need to be able to educate themselves on an industry. What's going on in that industry, what kind of stuff are they buying, what kind of challenges do they have? So there's a lot involved in that. Um. You know. So that's that's another thing. So a lot of it just comes down to making sure it's a good match. Like don't sign it just because you can. Yeah I feel yeah. Sign a deal. That's a good match because you'll have that client. For years I've had clients for, you know, 11, 12 years. Um, and that's because we're a really good match. Um, and, you know, I could sign all these little ones that call me or all these ones that are kind of not exactly what we do. And, um, you know, those ones are kind of destined to fail. So just, you know, be careful what you sign.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.26.09]

 Absolutely. I've signed again in desperation. And even in the beginning, I've learned very, very quickly and far too quickly that that was one of the biggest mistakes, because not only does a bad deal end up creating a lot of friction within your company, it can also create different types of dynamics in terms of trust with you and your with you and your team. It can change up any type of conversation. It really ends up being bad. It can screw up financially. Um, they could. One of the worst experiences. Yeah, they had money, but then they executed a campaign. I think it was a couple of months into us hiring people for that campaign. Then they said, we're not paying.

Shane Mahi

[00.26.53]

 Yeah. See that? And then it becomes a collection issue. And then. Exactly.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.26.57]

 And then you have to figure out how you pay for those people from other campaigns or other money and then like it's oh my God, what an absolute headache. So where did you discover where or at what point did you discover the spark for being a business owner, being an entrepreneur? Was it prior to the agency? Was it in high school? It was in college. Was it beyond the agency? Is there a specific time where you could just find out or really identify? That was the moment I knew I had a spark or I knew I had something different about this world, you know, um, that's a great question. I owning a business always seemed normal to me because my mom owned a business. And, you know, we talked about that. My mom was like this total rock star. So she was an insurance broker, and she did that at a time like in the 60s. So women were not insurance brokers in the 60s. My dad said that they'd be at, um, like events for the carriers. And I think she was, uh, I think State Farm was the, um, the big carrier that she worked with. And they would call out last names to come up and get awards, and everybody would look at my dad and he goes, that's her. You know, Yeah. My dad. My dad worked at NASA. He was, like, messing around with, like, space stuff. It's like my mom was, uh, a broker. She did very well. Um, and she had a real estate license, and she also started a flag company, and she would sell flags to the schools, to the car dealerships, um, custom flags for clubs and associations and banners and football stuff and sports stuff. And so she just did it. So to me it seemed really normal to do that. And so two things are really normal to start a business and really normal for a woman to start a business. I mean, it didn't even occur to me that it would be hard, you know, and so it wasn't, um, you know, when I, I remember, I was interviewing for a job. I don't even remember when it was. It was before I started my first agency. And I thought, I don't really like this company, but I could really help them. And so I actually did some projects for them. I thought, I don't want to work here full time, but I talked to them about it and I did some projects for them for quite a while, and then I expanded into a bigger agency. But then, like I said, it was kind of it was just too volatile of a space being in at the time. Um, but, I mean, I did it for years, so yeah, it supported me. It was great. Um. But to me it was always very normal. And I look back on jobs, um, you know, pre first agency. Then when I started working in tech I looked at that and it was really volatile. I mean we're going through acquisitions and we're going through um, you know just it, it was not stable. And I thought this is worse than owning a business at this time. It's not like when my parents grew up where you work at a company forever and you retire. It's especially when you're in tech because there's always changes. So, um, you know, my reference point was, okay, so I've been through acquisitions. I had a VC funded company that flopped, um, you know, all these different things. I thought, I'm just going to create this thing that is amazing. That's exactly what I would have wanted to work with. So that's what I did. And I find this to be a more consistent and more long term, you know, viable situation than ever working at a company. I don't know anybody that's worked at a company. Well, I'll take that back. I know a few people, but I mean, working at the same company for 20 years is pretty rare, especially in tech. But, you know, I've been doing this and it's stable and we just keep enhancing what we're doing to stay in front of trends and deliver what companies are looking for. And it's a lot of fun. But so I think for me it just seemed normal. Yeah, it wasn't. I see a lot of people are like, should I start a business? And they're all afraid. And a lot of the problem is people want to start a business, but they want to act like an employee. So. You know, you gotta own it. So if you are starting out. Oh, you're going away. Can you hear me?

Shane Mahi

[00.31.32]

 We have lost Shane, so let's hold on.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.31.38]

 Susan's back. Can you see me? Mhm.

Shane Mahi

[00.32.31]

 Oh! My God. All right, so we can continue. So I think we were, uh.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.33.20]

 Which part did you lose? Me,

Shane Mahi

[00.33.23]

 I don't remember. I don't know, I was like, all of a sudden you kind of went away, and I waited a minute. Was,

MariAnne Vanella

[00.33.31]

 uh. When did you start your second agency? No. When you. It was when you. I

Shane Mahi

[00.33.35]

 I think I was just talking about, like, the long term viability of this compared to working. Yes, yes,

MariAnne Vanella

[00.33.42]

 Yes, it was people being at a company for 20 years or more and being afraid to start a company for many reasons. Yes, that's what it was.

Shane Mahi

[00.33.48]

 Yeah. Yeah. So. You know if you're doing it right. And that's one of the things that you have to look at is where sales and marketing is going. Um, you know what? What should you do with your tech stack? Like I'm always evaluating our tech stack. Um, I make sure that I've got a ton of value that I bring to my clients. That is saving them a lot, so they don't have to buy the tools that I'm bringing because we use them in a way that they would use them internally. So that's what you have to do to give yourself longevity. So you can't just say, oh, I'm going to do this thing. Like I'm just going to do email marketing. And I've been using this same platform for a decade. It's like, yeah, okay, there's a lot of way cooler stuff that you could be doing now. Um, so I think it's just really aligning and I do a ton of thought leadership stuff in this space too. And you know what? What can we do? What can we use? Where's AI coming into it? Like what's a good use for AI? What's a bad use for AI? Um, there's a lot of really slick use cases, um, that we picked up on and applied to programs. And that's the stuff that adds value, because a lot of times within a company, it's very hard to implement a change, but we can implement a change much faster. I mean, we've got that agility to be able to do that where they don't. So that's what I always look at is, you know, my continually, uh, continuing to evolve so that I'm always providing the very best value.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.35.28]

 I think that's one of the reasons I started my agency, too. It was one of the first things we were in and we were owned by the sixth richest man in the UK.

Shane Mahi

[00.35.40]

 Sixth richest man in the UK. His name is Mike Dalio. I think it is um. Owns a company called Global Data. They're very similar to Gartner. Uh, and they own a number of different publishing agencies. And we had a PC with an internet connection. LinkedIn standard what they would not pay for premium. They would not pay for sales. Navigator. No type of intelligence in terms of finding contact data. Uh, everything was switchboard-like. The way I learned how to source leads was, um, I was selling demand generation webinars for oil and gas service companies, so let's say predictive maintenance solutions. A VA was a company that we worked with, and I could find no other way to find out competitors other than to search predictive maintenance or predictive analytics or predictive maintenance in oil and gas solutions. And then Google would have to provide the results, and then I'd have to go to the company page, contact us, go to switchboard. And it was such a nightmare. And then I found communism, which I thought was very cool, from a guy called Daniel Disney who I followed on LinkedIn. And

MariAnne Vanella

[00.36.46]

 then that opened up Pandora's Box into. All right, well, now you've got communism, now you've got so much data, you've got the ability to call it quickly. You need to be able to call it quicker, because yes, you can do this for one client, but how are you going to do it for six. So you need to be able to do that eight hour day in one hour in one hour. Right. And then you got into, oh my God in ten days. And how do you use AI in calls? So that brings us on to the next point of like where do you see our industry going? And then we will obviously touch upon AI. But in your mind right now, where do you see the outbound telesales telemarketing industry going in the next 12 to 24 months?

Shane Mahi

[00.37.32]

 Yeah. So if you've I know you've heard me say this. It's not that people don't take calls, they don't take bad calls. So I think the bad call stuff is going to continue to diminish. It has been for a long time. And I'm all about not putting your worst people on the front lines. So that's even internally, like companies have this weird model of, you know, they think, okay, this is entry level, let's get some entry level people and make them stars, and then they can work their way up and be a sales rep someday. And it's like, okay, so you're going to take your least experienced person that has the least amount of executive business, technology fluency and put them on the front line to call the biggest stakeholders in the company, like, why would you do that? Um, they do it all the time. And I know a lot of people still, you know, they're still going to do that. They don't agree with me, but I look at it like that skill set that you've got to have to be able to call somebody and get them to stop what they're doing and talk to you and have any kind of meaningful exchange. That's a pretty sophisticated skill set. Very. So that takes a lot. Um, so I do think that will always work. Um, I don't think that's going to go away, because the other thing, a lot of the people that we're talking to are not in tech, they're not in this kind of, you know, little micro kind of group of people that are really edgy and out there in front and, you know, they they are buying all the tech stuff and all the AI stuff and they know all the lingo and all that stuff. It's like there's a lot of businesses that we're selling to that are pretty old school. They're late adopters. They've still got old tech, they've still got old management practices. And so those people are, you know, they're going to be accessible and have a conversation with them. Um, you know, it's just a small pool of companies that are, you know, really innovative. So that that group is much smaller than the bigger group that you're selling to. So I don't think that will change. I do think agencies have to step up, because I do notice a lot of agencies popping up and a lot of them, a lot of those people that lost their job. So I'm like, it's like job pair of agencies, right? And so they're not really an agency. They're somebody that lost their job and they're like, I'm just going to go start a company doing this. And and then they're out there marketing. Maybe they've got an ability to build a website. And there's a ton of respected agencies out there. So don't get me wrong, there's some really good ones, but there's also all these little ones that are not, you know, they're they're not really an agency in the true sense. They're all people that are doing this thing and they're selling their skills to do whatever. Um, so that's, that's, you know, like sometimes you go to these networking events of agencies and I'm like, it's like a big job fair, right? And everybody's just, you know, they they're looking for clients and they want your clients. And it's like, okay, that's not um, something I want. Yeah. Yeah. That's so that's um, I do think the good agencies will continue to establish their presence. Um, I think a lot of these agencies that aren't great, you know, if they're good enough to get acquired, they will if, um, if they're not, they'll just kind of fizz out and do whatever. Um, but I, I always see a good place for agencies. The other thing is, I do see the demand for them going up, because for a company, the risk to hire somebody is at an all time high. So you make a bad hire. Um, you know, that could cost you, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars because, you know, they're perceiving you're doing something or, you know, I mean, there's. We're in a very litigation minded society now, and so there's a lot of risk to hiring somebody. Um, you've got to go through all this onboarding and I see on, on a X or Twitter or whatever so many people are talking about these interview cycles are going through, or, you know, they've got an interview with like ten people. They've got to do like a sample project. They've got to do this. I mean, they're really trying to vet who they bring on and reduce their risk, and not just the risk of getting sued for something, but just the risk of all the time to hire somebody in on board them. And, you know, they take six months to get up to speed, and then six months later they get a better job and they're out of there. Yeah. And it's like that whole thing, you know, you paid a recruiter, you paid for this. You stopped looking. You let your other candidates that were good, you know, you dropped off from them. They went and found other jobs. I mean, there's just so much that, um, is potentially very expensive, a lot more than hiring an FTE. So I do think the demand for good agencies is going to step up. But the thing that you've got to do is you've got to have the workflow so that, you know, because the way I look at us is we're a department for them. Um, we're not just this agency out in a black hole that they talk to, like we're actively engaged with them and we are a department for them. And that's really the way to look at it. Um, because that's what justifies the expense.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.43.04]

 I think it's very just as you pointed that out, it's the exact reason it justifies the expense because you can easily go. And again, one of the things I did was when I first started. I knew my capabilities.

Shane Mahi

[00.43.21]

 But

MariAnne Vanella

[00.43.22]

 reading and watching a bunch of

Shane Mahi

[00.43.26]

 video tutorials on Udemy, they said, go hire somebody from the Philippines and see how that goes. And that did happen. And I hired a wonderful lady called Beverly who had a family. And she also experienced torrential rain storms every other day, or tsunamis or power outages. Yeah. And it came to one point when she booked. Like I knew my scripts were good. So she booked a couple of meetings that I was quite impressed with. And then she took one into a meeting where he was about to pay for, um, I think a couple of months service, $10,000. And I said, who is this guy? Like, who is this guy that is apparently just going to pay for this service? And she goes, I scammed

MariAnne Vanella

[00.44.14]

 him, okay? I scammed him before. And I was like, oh my God, I was gonna sell him my service. And again, I had to cut ties with that woman from then. Yeah. But then that's where people get into the thing of. Yes, that was $10 an hour. But she had no systems, no operations, no experience. It was just, again, the only thing she had experienced and nothing bad against it. But that's all she knew was maybe taking a PayPal call.

Shane Mahi

[00.44.41]

 Yeah, right. You know, it's. Yeah. It's not for me to hire. Yeah. It's not an agency where you have an hour price of our service at one point was £8,666 per month, three agents. And that was around 20 something thousand. And that was not a Filipino or somebody from Bangladesh that's going to make calls from you. You had a fully fledged operation with data validation, everything that went with it. So the price thing is a very, very good point. And one thing that really caught my attention that you said is we've had tons of interviews with predominantly the majority of them, all agency owners, and a lot of the conversations are about realizing when you build an agency and you get to a certain point that you become curious about being acquired, and then you may entertain a few conversations with investors and then investors historically have given. Maybe I've even had those conversations where they said, your business is not really investable because there's not enough profit or there's not enough recurring revenue. It's too volatile. So

MariAnne Vanella

[00.45.56]

 the point you made, I think, is very interesting because I'm hearing it with creators. So a lot of businesses, instead of going to hire a creator and build it internally, I'm just going to hire Jake Paul or Logan Paul or KSI or something like that. And that now sounds quite familiar with what you're saying with the agencies. So what do you say to those that have been through investor conversations and historically have seen that agencies or service based businesses are difficult to invest in because of how volatile their inverse is? What we could be seeing then in the next 12 to 24 months. And if that agency is viable to be acquired, what does the avatar of that agency look like?

Shane Mahi

[00.46.38]

 So really, what you're selling is your brand, um, and your process. And I think one of the biggest problems that agencies have is they don't have documentation about their process. So what are they buying? Can they replicate it or is the process all yours? Right. So sometimes, you know, an agency owner has this really great methodology that they're executing on. So you know, can somebody replicate that? And you know that's what an investor is going to look at or a buyer is going to look at is how do I replicate this. So am I just buying a website and some inbound traffic. Um, so I think if somebody wants to get acquired, they should start documenting everything. Um, like, I, I own the telesales 2.0 trademark and we have and, you know, I'm not shopping to be acquired or anything, but, I mean, I built documentation around it because I'll implement that at clients. Um, and so it's a actual process and a predictable process that someone else can execute, because even if you sell your agency, you know, you've got to stay there for a while and stabilize it and integrate it all that, um, you know, if if you're just selling a web page and your current client base and you know, your, your internet inbound traffic, it's like, you know what? What's that worth?

MariAnne Vanella

[00.48.06]

 So how do you see AI being used in the best of ways over the next five years?

Shane Mahi

[00.48.14]

 I think it will be best used to keep. Well, there's so many ways. I mean, it is a long

MariAnne Vanella

[00.48.23]

 time in terms of progression with like we've seen what, 18 months of progression in like public view.

Shane Mahi

[00.48.30]

 So

MariAnne Vanella

[00.48.30]

 Five years of possibilities are endless.

Shane Mahi

[00.48.34]

 If you were to imagine, what would you see? You know, I think one of the biggest ways and, you know, we talked about this on one on the roundtable that we were doing, that you let me be part of the, um, I think a big deal is by having it on the front lines, because that's where there's the biggest breakdown, like marketing departments do this fabulous job of, you know, taking prospects through this digital journey. And, you know, they're downloading the right thing and they're going over here and they're demonstrating interest there and there, you know, on webinars and they're doing all this stuff. And then it goes to the front lines and it just completely falls apart. And then they go and shoot the program. They're like, oh, that didn't work. That webinar series didn't work. And it's like, did it not work? Or was it that something happened on the front line, but you just are totally blind to. So I think where we see a big impact is, you know, tools like Gong or, you know, being able to integrate it between your sales and marketing systems, you know, like there's a big problem of harmonizing what happens with sales and marketing. Um, and there's always kind of been this weird battle with sales and marketing, which is totally unnecessary. It's really the lack of communication that's the problem, I think. And so just

MariAnne Vanella

[00.49.51]

 to jump in on that, I think it's a lack of understanding of what sales actually means today, because you have the movies that show

Shane Mahi

[00.50.00]

 one specific industry, and then you break that industry down and you have one specific type of business that just so happens to be capital markets or stock investing. Right? And those are the, really the movies that show you what selling is about. And then people go into door to door sales, windows sales, roofing sales, uh, plumbing sales. But then you have our world, which is technology sales. And right, we're in an environment where people know everything. They see everything they need on TikTok or social media or on LinkedIn. So when you come into the room and start selling to them from your spin selling method, that was, what,

MariAnne Vanella

[00.50.44]

 20 years ago? Or any type of new books that you come like, people read through and they've read it too, because they've passed it on to their

Shane Mahi

[00.50.51]

 team. And yeah, yeah, like you've

MariAnne Vanella

[00.50.53]

 just got to realize where I'm getting to. And John Burroughs had a post about it today and.

Shane Mahi

[00.51.00]

 He

MariAnne Vanella

[00.51.01]

 a prospect chose him because everybody else went through what they do and how they do this. And then John mentioned how he was able to educate them on what's happening, where the industry is going, what kind of different things they'll see. And that's what I like for me as a business owner. Now, if I,

Shane Mahi

[00.51.20]

 I have to figure out something with LinkedIn myself too, because all I get is the same kind of thing. You see 2 or 3 connections, or some days you'll have 15. And it's a freaking software developer saying, do you need software development? Or, hey, I'd like to meet with you. And then it ends up being a nutritional coach that wants to work with you. Right. Yeah. And I'm just like, when am I going to catch a break? So I think, like for me, I think it's access to the right sales knowledge, being able to implement the right sales knowledge, having a step by step process of how to implement that, and then helping people have a natural conversation with somebody and speak to them, knowing like what the steps are kind of in your head of finding the problem and then seeing if you can resonate and all that stuff, but like having that in a conversational manner instead of like a checklist that day. So, um, what kind of money do you guys usually spend on this? Okay.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.52.15]

 You know. So who usually makes these decisions and likes, they know what you're doing. Right.

Shane Mahi

[00.52.21]

 Yeah. Yeah. It's just so cheesy but that. So I think that. Yeah. And the role of sales has totally changed. So like when I started in tech, um, the sales reps were the keeper of the information. So if you had a big digital initiative, um, you know, you want to swap out your data center, you want to upgrade your servers, you want to implement an ERP you want to do. You had to work with the rep. Mhm. Um, and you have to work with them early so that you could know what was going on and kind of get a vision of what you think you might want to use. And that has completely changed. So now all that information is online. So you can not only find everything you need to do your kind of early blueprint stages of planning, but you can also find who's using it. You can find other clients, you can just reach out to them directly. You don't have to ask for references. You could just look on LinkedIn and who's managing this, you know, XYZ implementation and just call them up and say, hey, I was thinking of using these guys. What's been your experience? And the rep has become completely different in where they contribute to it. So a lot of what the sales rep needs to do now is help the prospects to visualize or fit and help them, because that's the other thing that happens is your reps are or you're on prospects or consuming information and you're not there to, you know, guide them through it. So they may be looking and then they draw wrong conclusions and they're thinking something. So you're uh oh, wait, now I'm having an internet problem. Can you still hear me?

MariAnne Vanella

[00.54.08]

 Ah. Mhm.

Shane Mahi

[00.55.33]

 Back like the internet today.

MariAnne Vanella

[00.55.38]

 I think it might be. I think it's because I keep getting this notification in mind that my storage is running low because I've, there's 200 episodes recorded, but I haven't deleted some of them. But we were, we were going through like, um, yeah, exactly. And sorry. So go finish on that one. And then I want to

Shane Mahi

[00.55.55]

 ask you something. Yeah that's right. Because yeah, sales reps have a different role now in that their role is more to surface wrong thinking that your prospects might have developed from looking up stuff on their own. Right. So that's another thing because now, um, and like I mentioned before, do you want me to start over and talk about that part? No, no,

MariAnne Vanella

[00.56.15]

 no, you can just come on from this.

Shane Mahi

[00.56.17]

 Okay. So yeah. So the role now of sales reps is to help undo wrong thinking that your prospect has developed from looking at stuff and thinking, oh it's this. And it's like no it's not you know. Yeah. And also um, helping them to visualize how you can help them and finding out like, what are their obstacles. Like what? So it's a much more, um, intelligent role that sales reps have now. So now it's not, you know, pitching, selling, providing information, kind of being pushy. And, you know, it's completely different now where you need to partner. You got to help them visualize. You got to help them see that your operational efficiencies are superior. And this is why. And here are some long term clients. This is what they've experienced, you know. So there's a much different role now that is more consultative. It's more partnering with them. It's helping them to visualize and also digging in and saying, um, have you looked at what kind of stuff have you looked at online? And then they'll tell you because it's a lot of stuff. Doesn't get talked about. So, you know, you got to ask, like, have you been doing some research and stuff? What kind of things are you seeing? And find out what they're seeing. Find out what they're thinking. Um, you know, there could be other people involved in the process, and they're looking at stuff and they're thinking the wrong things. And, you know, like, we had one client, um, you know, they had, uh, they were selling this network infrastructure. And so they had this one account they wanted to get into, and there was this one guy that was so negative, and he was always the obstacle. So he was always the person they couldn't get past. And so we called that guy and had a big old conversation with them about, you know, what he really thinks about it. And we found out that his ideas of what this technology was was like five years old. And that's like not even a thing anymore. So for him to, um, you know, we had to just educate the guy because he really just was thinking the wrong thing. Yeah. And the rep wasn't finding out. The rep is just like, this guy's not letting this happen, and he's always the problem in the meeting, and he's, you know, but actually talking to him and finding out that he's got very dated knowledge about the technology, able to fix that. They closed a $4 million deal and. They were the better provider. It was somebody with wrong information and that happens all the time. So that's the role of the sales reps now. And you know the other thing that you mentioned about how agencies stay relevant, it's like if you see your clients not doing something, you need to do it for them. Because if there's some key part of your program that needs to happen, if you're not, if you're just waiting around for them to do it, it's like it's not going to happen because they're also very busy. You know, they've got all kinds of deadlines and stuff. And, you know, it takes a lot of time to build that relationship with them so that they trust you and they'll make internal changes. So if there's something that needs to happen, you need to do it. And people forget that, like within these businesses, people are having the teams that you're probably speaking to, the individuals you're speaking to, and the other stakeholders that we tell you to go and speak to them for a reason, because they are all sitting on the Friday meeting discussing strategy. And they're asking, did you have a conversation with that guy? Yeah. What did he say? What do you think? Okay, when are we going to move forward? We got to do this, this, and then we'll do this. People don't think about it like, there's so much. And I see where again, you've got a young like they may be very well educated, but again your education does

MariAnne Vanella

[01.00.12]

 not match the experience. So as we wrap up and come to the top of the hour. Number one thing that I focus on. It's how I've got through every single hiccup, obstacle, roadblock in my life is the ability to remain resilient. And my mechanism, it may not be the best, if I've had a lot of people doubt me. Uh, say horrible things about me, prey on my failure and the motivation I get to prove them wrong, as well as proving it to me that I now have the stature and the authority to say, yeah, look, I've gone through it and I'm out on the other side and ten times better and so much further ahead. That is my fuel to my fire for you. What? What? And people who are listening to you, maybe younger females out there, woman entrepreneurs, ambitious women. What kind of consistent habit have you inherited in your life or action that has really helped you remain resilient for however long it's been? From your first challenge that you almost broke, to being able to sustain that kind of pain and get through it over and over and over again with X and you defining X as yeah, yeah. Um. Hold on. Yeah. Get a drink

Shane Mahi

[01.01.37]

 for that one. Yeah. Um, for one, I'm very independent, so I always have and I think because I'm an only child, it's like I always just did my own stuff. Right? And, um, so I have this sense of independence and also, like, don't get wrapped up in all the noise of, you know, because there's so much conflict. It's like women and business and men and business and that and this and that. You know, it's like, just do it

MariAnne Vanella

[01.02.09]

 right. Follow this course, download my course and be a millionaire.

Shane Mahi

[01.02.13]

 Yeah. It's like, you know, the thing that always keeps me going. And one of the things I love, what I do, it is so fun. I love learning about all these different technologies and really digging in because to me it's so interesting. Um, you know, I, I love the technology piece of it and how it's solving things and understanding real complex things. So that is what keeps me going a lot because I really enjoy that. I also enjoy talking to companies and explaining to them what we do and learning about them and having them just blown away that we get it, and I, I love that too. Um, I think the advice is, um. You know, understand what you want to do. I think a lot of people start businesses and they think like, I'm just going to start a business and it's all going to magically happen. And it's like, no, what I did, I had worked. I was a VP of marketing for what? My last gig was VP marketing. And, you know, I was going to tons of trade shows. I know a ton of people. I had a ton of business cards, contacts I'd had for years. And I called them up. I'm like, hey, I'm doing this thing. And they're like, we need this thing. And one of those companies I worked with for a decade so that 's like, you've got to have a plan and you've got to take advice from people and look at who you're taking advice from. Like, I had one person that was always like ripping up my website and I'm like, okay, you have no job. But you, you know, and this was a person in tech, right? And, you know, they were always all doomed. Like, oh, people aren't buying that anymore. And I'm like, okay, when you make the money off of a website that I make off mine, then you've got some credibility to criticize it. So you need to know who to listen to and where you go for advice, because there are tons of people that will tell you something's not working. And don't do that and do this. And there's all kinds of things that could stabilize you, but you need to just see it and make it work. And don't over plan like some people are so afraid to pull the trigger on something. You know, I had one person, um, you know, I'm always and I think that's another thing is I always take opportunities to, um, you know, talk to others, to teach others, to get in front of people, to get in front of an audience. And, you know, a lot of people feel like they've got to have everything perfect. And come on, how many times have we been on webinars? And there's like typos and slides and stuff like that? I mean, it just happens. And not that I'm saying that you go out there with crap, you know, but it's like it. You don't have to be so uptight about everything being perfect before you start. And nobody is going to sit around and say, you know, I'm not going to buy that because he had bad punctuation and that, you know, it's like, nobody cares about that stuff, right? And if anything, it just makes you realize that everybody's just people and we're all trying to get our stuff out there and talk to people. And so don't get paralyzed by fear of not being perfect. Um, that's

MariAnne Vanella

[01.05.29]

 huge. I couldn't agree more. It's one of the many, many reasons I fell out with my old business partner. And it was mainly because there would be ideas. Um, not every idea gets to the table, but the ability to share ideas with a person who you think is at equal stature to you and have them kind of share their opinion and iterate the idea that is the fun behind and a lot of fun in running a business. And I would get to those conversations and imagine sitting in front of your business partner and you're sharing with enthusiasm, and the person is just like.

Shane Mahi

[01.06.07]

 Yeah, like just shooting down everything. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. Like eventually it got to just that just again. And that's another learning lesson. I think one of the major things that's helped me or is helping me beyond some of the other things that has helped me be resilient, is knowing when to pull the plug on something and not letting your emotions get in the way. Because yeah,

MariAnne Vanella

[01.06.33]

 A big investor told me this a while ago, and last year actually around this time it was never too late. Uh, it's never too early, but it's never too late. It just has. The deed has to be done. And it's never easy. Yeah, yeah,

Shane Mahi

[01.06.50]

 yeah, I've always got ideas, you know, and and sometimes, you know, one time somebody was criticizing me, and they're like, you always just shoot from the hip. You just think of something, you just do it. And I'm like, I've made millions of dollars. I've made millions of dollars just thinking of something and doing it. So, you know, it's like people can criticize me, I don't care. It's like, you know, like with this business, um, you know, there's some people that are like, oh, you don't have the right software to do that. You don't have this. I started this with an HP Pavilion that was like the best at the time. Right. And, you know, I had some stupid modem connection and I'm using a landline and I'm just like, okay, I'm going to start this thing. And, you know, some people are like, oh, no, you don't have the right, uh, CRM software and you don't have the right this and you don't have the right that. And it's like, you don't have to

MariAnne Vanella

[01.07.41]

 do that. Yeah, we'll come go

Shane Mahi

[01.07.43]

 get it. Right. Like, now I've got an amazing tech stack and you know, that comes in time. You know, you don't have to wait. If you had to wait for everything to be all perfectly in place and you have all the systems, you have all this, you have all that. By the time you're ready, everything's changed. Yeah. So, you know, just do it. And, you know, one thing, um, that somebody gave me a piece of advice that was really valuable is they said every day spend like 15 to 30 minutes doing business development for your startup. So you never are. You don't want to be complacent. You don't want to be to a point where you're like, I'm doing pretty good right now. Oh, my ads are slipping, or I haven't done any SEO on the side, and I haven't done this and I haven't done that. And then something happens. You know, your customer is getting ready to file for bankruptcy you don't know about. And then it's like, oh my gosh, we've got to wrap up, you know, and so you want to always do that. It's better just to refer stuff out because you can't take on anything new than to be in a position where you're freaking out. Absolutely and absolutely, absolutely. So for the visionaries who are trying to find their purpose or look towards a why, maybe to push their imagination to the same kind of thinking as people like yourself or even as me in ten years from now.

MariAnne Vanella

[01.09.06]

 It's the 11th of April, 846. What are you doing at 846 UK time, which is maybe 146 your time on the 11th of April in 2034. I am writing about my dressage horse on an estate in the UK. Wow.

Shane Mahi

[01.09.27]

 Okay, so we're gonna be living next door to each other. All

MariAnne Vanella

[01.09.29]

 right.

Shane Mahi

[01.09.31]

 I love it out there. I've got lots of friends out there, and, uh, that's. Yeah. Wow.

MariAnne Vanella

[01.09.37]

 Okay. I'm working. People find it. If people want to learn more about what you do, or maybe inquire about your services, where are the best places to pick up those conversations with you?

Shane Mahi

[01.09.48]

 Um, I hope you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, I'm on X, I'm on uh, you go to our website. So it's vanilla group.com. Um, there's a contact us form that'll eventually get to me. Um, yeah. So I'm pretty accessible and I'm glad to talk to people that want to learn more.

MariAnne Vanella

[01.10.08]

 Thank you very, very much for showing up today. Any last words?

Shane Mahi

[01.10.15]

 No, this was great. I think we covered a bunch of stuff. We

MariAnne Vanella

[01.10.17]

 definitely did. We definitely did. So thank you

Shane Mahi

[01.10.19]

 again for the last time. Yeah. Anybody find that everything, like, totally filled up when we

MariAnne Vanella

[01.10.27]

 actually put it together this time. So for anybody that did enjoy this and liked what we're doing, like the episode, share it with people that you think would find this valuable and subscribe so you can find more. Find out more about new episodes that are coming up.

Shane Mahi

[01.10.47]

 Thanks. Bye. 

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